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Best Sniper Rifle.. Caliber?


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Old 11-04-2011, 06:00 PM   #121
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Also, one last thing. There is no such thing as a "sniper rifle" in my opinion. There are snipers and there are rifles. A real sniper can use a decent rifle and achieve fantastic results with that rifle. History proves this.
+85!!

tru dat.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:10 PM   #122
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+85!! tru dat.
Iím not a sniper. I donít even have a rifle, yet (Iím looking) but Iíve been studying this a little bit now, as well as following this thread. It seems to me that after some point (300-500 yards?) the longer the distance, the less the rifle matters and the more the marksman matters. Or more precisely, as the bullet canít read the wind or mirage and it starts getting tired of the trip down range, itís the marksmanís knowledge of the load and ability to compensate for the environmental factors thatís increasingly important.

The question I have is at what point do you reach diminishing returns for the money $pent. Somebody here figured Bullís eyes cost $750 per 100 yards. Does that sound about right?

I guess Iím asking about where does the tool$ line and the practice line cross on the graph?
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:21 PM   #123
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Don't ask me. I'm just a braggart. BTW that's as much of your garbage as I will read EagleSix. I don't feed trolls. Actually I didn't read past your pathetic insinuations regarding my shooting ability. It's always the ones who can't shoot who act that way. They think no one can because they can't. Welcome to my ignore list.

It's not true that a bullseye costs that much Vincine. I can do far better than that with the rifle I have despite what the trolls have to say. I spent $900 on a used rifle and I can hit bullseyes at 440 yards that I know of. It will likely do more than that. If my rifle was a .308 version instead of a .223 version it would likely go out to 1000 yards and hit a bull of appropriate size. Actually people do shoot that distance with a .223 but I've never even had the chance to try it.

I'm sorry but I won't be available to answer any more questions in this troll bowl. Good luck with your purchase.

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Old 11-04-2011, 07:40 PM   #124
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You are correct, they did it in spite of that fact. I seem to recall a famous sniper, Carlos Hathcock, that used an m70 for his sniping needs.

You are correct, there are definitely rifles capable of much better accuracy than what the rifles we have mentioned are. But this, i believe, is more an effect of the current mentality. The mentality that you should blame your equipment, not your self. The russians seemed to do pretty damn well with mosin nagants. The propoganda that you absolutely must have a .2 moa rifle to be a sniper is retarded. Ask any real sniper and they will tell you, the equipment doesn't make the sniper.


Hell, Hathcocks longest shot was with an m2. Yep, a machine gun. Some custom built sniper rifle huh?


I was having an argument very similar to this with a former marine force recon member, he was all about having a .3 moa rifle for sniping. I told him that was rediculous and that 1moa or better was plenty accurate enough. His reasoning for .3 moa? "what if you are 1600 yards away and you are trying to take out someone who has a hostage" I quickly pointed out the ridiculousness of such circumstances happening and the reasons you woulnd't attempt that shot. He was particularly talking about the m24, so I also pointed out the fact that the m24 is short action and can't chamber anything that can reach that far..... But I digress.

If you doubt the effectiveness of "off the shelf" rifles, than you should really read up on your military history.


Also, you made mention of making 20 shot strings and maintaining accuracy... Not many military rifles will do that even today.... You know what will? Bench rifles.
cory you need to read the book about Carlos Hatchcock, he used winchester M70's put together by Marine Corp armorers, they were not off the shelf rifles. plus they did lots of accurizing and tuning to the rifles and used match grade ammo.

the browning m2 50bmg is a very accurate machine gun in it's own right. Hathcock also used a special made scope mount for his Unertl sniper scope. he also usd the gun in single shot mode to make his shots. it was because of this, that years later shoulder fired 50bmg rifles gained popularity as long range sniper rifles. the 50bmg round used bullet weights that ranged from 600-800 grains.

also they specify a certain level of moa because the lower the number the more capable the rifle is of being accurate at a longer range.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:52 PM   #125
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Don't ask me. I'm just a braggart. BTW that's as much of your garbage as I will read EagleSix. I don't feed trolls. Actually I didn't read past your pathetic insinuations regarding my shooting ability. It's always the ones who can't shoot who act that way. They think no one can because they can't. Welcome to my ignore list.

It's not true that a bullseye costs that much Vincine. I can do far better than that with the rifle I have despite what the trolls have to say. I spent $900 on a used rifle and I can hit bullseyes at 440 yards that I know of. It will likely do more than that. If my rifle was a .308 version instead of a .223 version it would likely go out to 1000 yards and hit a bull of appropriate size. Actually people do shoot that distance with a .223 but I've never even had the chance to try it.

I'm sorry but I won't be available to answer any more questions in this troll bowl. Good luck with your purchase.
jeff, i am not saying that the savage you have or that the savages they shoot in competition are not accurate, just that those are not off the shelf rifles as they would have you believe. they have accurized those rifle to gain the distances they shoot at, they hand load custom ammo and match it to the gun they are shooting and put a scope on that rifle that costs more than most people make in a month. i am not down on savage rifles, have had a few over the years that were very accurate and fun to shoot. but if a person could just order or walk into a gun store and spend $1000-1200 for a rifle capable of this type accuracy, wouldn't the market dry up for barrel makers, custom action makers, and gunsmiths who build custom and accurate rifles? i mean why would someone wait six to twelve months to have a rifle built when they could go to the gun store and order one and have it in a much shorter time?
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:01 PM   #126
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Also, one last thing. There is no such thing as a "sniper rifle" in my opinion. There are snipers and there are rifles. A real sniper can use a decent rifle and achieve fantastic results with that rifle. History proves this.
True to a point. The Boers messed up the Brits pretty bad w/ 7x57 Mausers, both the Germans and Brits took notice. A Combat rifle that is built and scoped w/ a specific purpose, a death dealer, in other words, a sniper rifle. Can other rifles be used or have they been used? Yes. Vietnam for the U.S., but the NVA used purpose built PU91/30's. So Cory, we disagree. Here are my "not" snipers.
Guess I could have spent less for a Savage. Wait, I have a Savage! it is no "sniper".
Best Sniper Rifle.. Caliber? - General Rifle Discussion
Best Sniper Rifle.. Caliber? - General Rifle Discussion
Best Sniper Rifle.. Caliber? - General Rifle Discussion
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:26 PM   #127
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Apparently, no one saw this the first time. What is to stop someone from putting handloads in a rifle that isn't a custom built job?

I will answer it since no one seems to want to.

Answer: nothing.


Also, regarding scopes. Scopes are not rifles. Just because you put a 5000 dollar scope on a thompson smg does not mean it is going to shoot nickels at 500 yards. Scopes help you shoot better they don't help the rifle.... See palma shooting.



Also, talking about "sniper rifles" then referencing several guns that are barely capable of 1moa, if that. Then saying something that is more accurate is not a "sniper rifle" is kinda... well... dumb, don't you think?
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:53 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Cory2 View Post
Apparently, no one saw this the first time. What is to stop someone from putting handloads in a rifle that isn't a custom built job?

I will answer it since no one seems to want to.

Answer: nothing.


Also, regarding scopes. Scopes are not rifles. Just because you put a 5000 dollar scope on a thompson smg does not mean it is going to shoot nickels at 500 yards. Scopes help you shoot better they don't help the rifle.... See palma shooting.



Also, talking about "sniper rifles" then referencing several guns that are barely capable of 1moa, if that. Then saying something that is more accurate is not a "sniper rifle" is kinda... well... dumb, don't you think?
No Cory, what is dumb is highjacking a thread and being a little prick about it. If you want to stand at 600 yards and let me take a pot shot at your 6"x7" melon, it will prove you wrong. What I shoot has historic significance. It was not designed on a CAD, it was made by hand. Without what I shoot, yours would not exist. I really thought you and others had a clue, guess I was wrong. You truly are ignorant. These 1moa at best rifles were 800 yard killers. Kim Du Tout wrote an article about the M41b, "The last of the 800 yard killers". Look it up. These simple 3.5 and 4x scopes will ruin your day.

Please stop hijacking threads!!!! Be a normal Redneck and beat your kids or wife!
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:02 PM   #129
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I do not intend to pour gasoline on the fire or even fan the flames a little, but isn't the shooter's ability the factor to consider first, and not the equipment? The most expensive and customized rifles won't perform well in the hands of someone who just plain can't shoot. I have seen some great natural shooters do amazing things with rifles and handguns that were quite ordinary, or off-the-shelf or out-of the-box as some would say. As someone pointed out earlier, the Russians did very well with their Mosins, even with iron sights, in WWII. We can spend as mush money on guns as we want but that factor by itself does not determine how well we shoot.
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:35 PM   #130
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I do not intend to pour gasoline on the fire or even fan the flames a little, but isn't the shooter's ability the factor to consider first, and not the equipment? The most expensive and customized rifles won't perform well in the hands of someone who just plain can't shoot. I have seen some great natural shooters do amazing things with rifles and handguns that were quite ordinary, or off-the-shelf or out-of the-box as some would say. As someone pointed out earlier, the Russians did very well with their Mosins, even with iron sights, in WWII. We can spend as mush money on guns as we want but that factor by itself does not determine how well we shoot.
To a certain extent, you are absolutely correct Blue, as others have also pointed out. Regardless of the equipment, the driver has to do his/her job. However, the thread was started asking about which is the best military sniper rifle and caliber, with some specifications.....not 50 caliber, and the rifle has to have been used or adopted by the military.

The Mosin certainly falls within the specifications, but I don't think it would be rated as "the best" of the available field of choices.

The starting thread didn't question the shooters ability, but rather solicited opinions on the best rifle and caliber. But, you have a good point and I agree.

.
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