[Jeff56]

I knew it would come down to, "I'm doing it so it must be right". It's always the guys who spend a bunch of money that swear it can't be done without spending a bunch of money. Sorry but it can be done and is being done with $1200 rifles. The whole world believes it with the exception of the people who spend way more than they need to get out to 1000 yards.

BTW Savage doesn't compete in every type of shooting. There are plenty of competitions where custom rifles dominate. F class and F/TR just aren't among them. It's a world class shooting competition and Savage dominates it not only winning nearly every event but also setting world records by huge amounts and they do it at 1000 yards.

You want to make it personal you might want to think about what people can throw back at you. You've been smoking too much gunsmith garbage for example. You won't even admit the facts that are known far and wide. That says a lot about who you are. Only YOU can shoot 1000 yards and us poor peons can't even imagine it. Talk about over the top. Buddy you are way over the top. You're really asking for it talking to people that way. Maybe someone will point out that you did spend 5 times as much as you needed to get to 1000 yards. Go measure that in your car. Not only that but I doubt very seriously you can shoot better than I can. You don't want to ask me how many competitions I've won. You can ask but I won't tell you about my sponsor and my mentor. You really are asking for it when you go assuming you know more than someone else on the net. I have this edge though. I have maybe the best shooter in the world as my mentor. It's hard to argue with that. And you think no one else even knows how far 1000 yards is.

Plus where did you get that anyone said it was being done with factory ammo? Can you show me where I said that or anyone said that? Because I certainly didn't see that.

I don't doubt there is no convincing you of anything. You have your mind made up and no amount of facts are going to change it. It's easy to think you're the best when you don't get your head out of the sand and look around. You won't believe it until you see it and you aren't looking. Sounds about right.

well cory2 and jeff56, just to understand things correctly, the $5000-6000 i'm spending on building an accurate long range rifle is wasted money?

You said it, not me. It sure looks that way though, doesn't it? Oh wait. I forgot. You have your eyes closed.

[jpattersonnh]

So how did this bull shinogin start? I thought this was about sniper rifles, not F,Y, or Z class. You boys need to leave the sand box and take a time out. Jeff, in this thread I could really care less if you shoot 1000 yards or 100 yards, it would be a better conversation for a new thread. JMHO.

[Jeff56]

Well I could really care less about what you care less about and I never once said "I" could shoot 1000 yards. In fact I said plainly I had never shot over a quarter of a mile. I can't help it if people get mad when you tell them some facts they don't like.

[Muliemaster]

Well not to brag ya know I just the weiner off a fly at 2200 yards with my custom daisy red rider bb rifle so ha ha beat that all jokes aside there is no reason as stated to spend half a yrs sallary on a rifle for 1000 yrd shootin period many rifles are able to get the job done with proper loads an lots of shoulder time

[TCH2FLY]

You can have a awsum sniperz rifle for less than $500 if you custum makes your scopes and silunser like me


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[EagleSix]

Originally Posted by Jeff56

I had to join a gun club to find any place at all that has a range longer than 300 yards. The reason I shot 300 yards was there is a particular way to shoot that distance on my farm. I actually meant to type "many" instead of any in the sentence about shooting farther than 300 yards. The few places there are to do it are privately owned and they come with their own set of hazards like shooting in an area that isn't exactly safe. I could climb up on a hill and shoot 3000 yards if I didn't mind shooting into the Ohio River but of course a ricochet is always possible and there are people living all along that river.

Thank You for your reply Jeff. If "the few places" you refer to above, aren't safe.....they really aren't a few, are they? They wouldn't even be considered. I'm wondering why you would even discuss or mention something not safe is not even considered at any margin!

Originally Posted by Jeff56

I settled on using Black Hills ammo from 68 gr. to 75 gr.. I used the reloaded stuff most of the time because it works just as well and costs less. I went through about 20 different brands and weights of ammo to get to that ammo as being best for my rifle. It's a popular type of ammo and I tried it early on but in 52 gr. form and that didn't work well at all.

I'm still not sure what ammunition you used for you 2" groups, was it Black Hills 68 grains or 75 grains, or something in between? Was it factory, re-manufactured or reloaded? I'm confused on this point.

Originally Posted by Jeff56

Cory did a good job covering the rifles that should be able to do 1000 yards accurately. Of course it depends on what you want to call accurate.~snip~

Jeff...actually I was hoping to get a bit more, like manufacturer, make and model and caliber. He did on the Sako and Savage, but then we already know about the Savage, between you and Cory I think maybe you guys have repeated it about 20 times or so. Your statement was, "In fact there are a lot of stock rifles that will do it", so I probably should have asked first, how many are lots. I thought you meant lots like 20-25, or even 50!

Originally Posted by Jeff56

The reason I said I can shoot 2" groups is I use chalk targets that explode essentially when you hit them with a centerfire rifle.~snip~

Jeff, that was rather misleading and disappointing.....your credibility as a rifle shooter is starting to dwindle for me. I have never met a real rifleman who claimed a group without shooting the group. I have however met a lot of internet commando's and want-to-be snipers who make such claims as you have with the chalk!!! I hope this isn't typical for you and was just a slight oversight, I would hate to think you are some kind of want-to-be bragger.

Originally Posted by Jeff56

~snip~ because the truth is if you put a good enough barrel on an action you can get 1000 yard accuracy out of it. A good barrel that is floated and doesn't flex too much, a good trigger that isn't so hard to pull it affects your shot, and a scope that will let you see where you're aiming are about the only essentials to great shooting. ~snip~

Jeff, I support your right to your opinion and respect that you have formed an opinion, but you are way off base on most of your statements about accuracy, factory rifles, off the shelve, 1000 yard shooting. I was following you for a while and thought you had something, but I think what you have is what you have read. I do think you have had some success at shooting a rifle, and by what you have written here, that success has been recently with one rifle, the Savage. But, Jeff, you come off like some kind of a 1000 yard rifle shooter expert, when now it comes out you have never shot 1000 yards, probably never shot past 440 yards.

You are correct that a good barrel that doesn't flex too much, usually makes for better accuracy. You are correct a match grade fine tune trigger is advantageous to shooting well, as is the free floating barrel and good glass. But there is so much more involved with accuracy, you can not reduce it to these four elements; barrel, floating, trigger and scope. When you do, you have shown your inexperience, and lack of understanding accuracy. This happens a lot with those who read, but not do! Those of us who know better have read a lot and went out and done it (....or are trying to do it!).

Any rifle shooter I know, who has shoot 2" groups with a 223 rifle at 440 yards, knows exactly what ammo he/she used to do it. Not just a brand, or range of bullet weights. On the other hand if they were just plinking at fun targets, I can understand the lapse in memory.

You have a right to your opinion, but your opinion is based on what others have done, you apparently have only read about.

Although the thread started off about military sniper rifles and calibers, and the fact Savage has never had a sniper rifle adopted or used by the military......I sill support Jeff's enthusiasm for Savage high end rifles. Why, because I have a Savage 110-FP 308 (long action) which I have made 1,000 yard shots with (actually the longest was booked at 1,250 yards) and the best paper 100 yard 3-shot group was .183". With that said, That was the best group I shot.....I may never beat that group and the average for that rifle is .5 MOA and I consider it to be a solid 3/4 MOA shooter. How about them there 1,000 yard shots George? This thread started with snipers, not F-Class range shooters. My shots are in the field, under real field conditions and at silhouette sized targets. And guess what, I have made a lot of 1,000 yard misses in my quest to finally start getting hits. Hits, by the way started years ago, so there is a lot of trial and error, hits and misses, thousands of rifle rounds and many hours of training which go into my abilities. I consider this old Savage 110-FP to be a 1,000 yard 1 MOA gun, on a good day (it doesn't make for a good sniper rifle, but is good for punching paper and training). I do not believe any other Savage is a 1,000 yard gun until I see it (and I have seen a couple, but not many). I also have a Remington 700 308 which is a 1 MOA field gun.

But punching paper on a 1,000 range, as a factory team shooter, is far from sniper shooting. A sniper rifle has to be more than just a rifle that shoots tight groups. In competition reliability may only cost you the game. In sniping, it can very well cost you a life, or 2, or 3, or a whole lot more. Unless Savage has done something different with their extractor, that is reason enough it be eliminated from selection as a serious battle rifle.

Although the Savage lug nut barrel mounting design (not originally Savage's, by the way) makes for easy head spacing and barrel swaps, it is also arguably a weaker design. If mounted properly, it should hold up, but it is a weaker link than a Rem 700 or similar design. This is just another reason why the Savage, in my opinion should be overlooked as a serious sniper rifle.

When you build or pay to have built for you, a precision rifle, in addition to a very long list of details, you are paying to get a precision rifle. When you buy a factory off-the-shelve rifle, you might get a good shooter, like I did (although I bought mine used), but most likely you will get a not so good shooter, because the majority of the off-the-shelve rifles for $1,200.00 or less, are exactly that.....not so good shooters.

Let me clarify not so good shooters.....not so good for sniping, and not capable of 20 shot groups strings of MOA at 100, 300 and 600 yards.

I think the Savage 10/12/110 FP series of rifles, is in general, a good choice for students to start their precision rifle training, and some may even be suited to keep for a back-up serious rifle.

If you spend your $5,000 on a serious precision rifle from many of the quality custom makers, you are going to get exactly what you paid for. Buy those guns off the shelve and you are going to get hit-and-miss or worse. The value of a rifle doesn't make a sniper. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule.....H-S Precision, McMillan and others didn't reach success because Savage, Rem, Winchester and others were producing super accurate guns for the masses, available off-the-shelve!

.

[Cory2]

Originally Posted by EagleSix

~snip....H-S Precision, McMillan and others didn't reach success because Savage, Rem, Winchester and others were producing super accurate guns for the masses, available off-the-shelve!

.

You are correct, they did it in spite of that fact. I seem to recall a famous sniper, Carlos Hathcock, that used an m70 for his sniping needs.

You are correct, there are definitely rifles capable of much better accuracy than what the rifles we have mentioned are. But this, i believe, is more an effect of the current mentality. The mentality that you should blame your equipment, not your self. The russians seemed to do pretty damn well with mosin nagants. The propoganda that you absolutely must have a .2 moa rifle to be a sniper is retarded. Ask any real sniper and they will tell you, the equipment doesn't make the sniper.


Hell, Hathcocks longest shot was with an m2. Yep, a machine gun. Some custom built sniper rifle huh?


I was having an argument very similar to this with a former marine force recon member, he was all about having a .3 moa rifle for sniping. I told him that was rediculous and that 1moa or better was plenty accurate enough. His reasoning for .3 moa? "what if you are 1600 yards away and you are trying to take out someone who has a hostage" I quickly pointed out the ridiculousness of such circumstances happening and the reasons you woulnd't attempt that shot. He was particularly talking about the m24, so I also pointed out the fact that the m24 is short action and can't chamber anything that can reach that far..... But I digress.

If you doubt the effectiveness of "off the shelf" rifles, than you should really read up on your military history.


Also, you made mention of making 20 shot strings and maintaining accuracy... Not many military rifles will do that even today.... You know what will? Bench rifles.

[ttdub]

.338 I've heard is pretty awesome.

[Cory2]

Also, one last thing. There is no such thing as a "sniper rifle" in my opinion. There are snipers and there are rifles. A real sniper can use a decent rifle and achieve fantastic results with that rifle. History proves this.

[mrm14]

One other thing.... I don't like the "S" word used for target rifles. No worries, just a thought, but these rifle types should be called target rifles. Not "S" rifles.