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Old 12-22-2009, 01:52 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Wambli View Post
1) Too heavy and unwieldly to manuver in tight confines
2) Most popular ammo choices are
-slugs-problems with overpenetration indoors
-buckshot- poor penetration depending on angle and poor performance outdoors on longer distance - you are listing "over penetration and poor performance in the same sentance. Safety slugs are readily available and "longer distance would not apply in a self defense situation.
3) HEAVY recoil and slow follow up shots - Maybe if you're using a double barrel or single shot, other than that timing is no slower than a DA revolver. Unless you weigh 90#'s and can't bench press over 50#
4) LOUD indoors, almost as much as a FB - Who cares? If I go deaf for a day or two and live, it all good.
5) Mostly unsuitable for females and younger members of the household who might need an SD gun when you are not around - I began shooting shotguns with comfort at age 7. If the wife doesn't like 'em leave her the .38, whatever
6) Tough to handle a shotgun AND a light - If you know you own residence you should barely need a light if at all. I've found my way around my house (not a simple layout) in the wort shape you could imagine.
7) Usually piss poor sighting systems - The shotgun is intended in ALL applications to point, not aim.
8) 3-5 round capacity for most models - As well as fast, easy reloading. It's hard to miss or fumble w/ a 3" shell, almost 1" in diameter into the mag tube
9) SLOW reloads - see above
10) Expensive and punishing to shoot enough to become profient - What? Do you realize that many of us spend an entire WEEKEND shooting SGs. . . trap, skeet, sporting clays, etc. You can buy cases of target ammo at K-Mart for cheap, much less if you order from a supplier. Also, it doesn't take all that much practice to become proficient enough, unless you're trying to win medals.
I'll edit your above quote for mistakes and false info using a - after each listing. . . and highlight in bold.

If you were to experience the rare event of several intruders entering your home simultaneously, then maybe one of your ninja assassin type ARs would be needed, however for the average citizen. A 12 gauge is practical, sufficient, versatile and deadly.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:59 AM   #32
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Well you guys asked, I answered. We disagree and all is well. The facts as we see them from both sides are there and folks can read them and just make their own minds up.

Sharing info and points of view is a great thing. Thanks for the lively discussion gentlemen.

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Old 12-22-2009, 02:50 PM   #33
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http://230grain.com/showthread.php?p=79027

I believe this was posted in another thread but is worth taking a look at. Should be able to draw an intelligent conclusion from this test.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggsbakes View Post
I'll edit your above quote for mistakes and false info using a - after each listing. . . and highlight in bold.
Ok, by now I should know better but I guess I can't leave well enough alone. My responses are in ble below. Just trying to correct some of your "mistakes and false info".

I do not expect to change your mind. I just hope some folks will learn something out of this discussion...

Originally Posted by Wambli
1) Too heavy and unwieldly to manuver in tight confines
I guess there is no snappy comeback for this one.

2) Most popular ammo choices are
-slugs-problems with overpenetration indoors
-buckshot- poor penetration depending on angle and poor performance outdoors on longer distance - you are listing "over penetration and poor performance in the same sentance. Safety slugs are readily available and "longer distance would not apply in a self defense situation.

Over penetration through drywall indoors is well known with slugs and buckshot alike. Poor performance of buckshot in situations where the threat is a large person, or terminal performance even with COM hits is clearly documented, do some research. Outdoors at longer than 15 yards buckshot is a hideously poor stopper and there are plenty of scenarios that could potentially call for this when you live in a rural area

3) HEAVY recoil and slow follow up shots - Maybe if you're using a double barrel or single shot, other than that timing is no slower than a DA revolver. Unless you weigh 90#'s and can't bench press over 50#

I'm a bit bigger than and I can emopty out a high capacity 12 ga shotgun in seconds. BUT but it's not me I'm talking about. In any case I was not comparing it to a DA revolver, which by the way is lighting fast compared to a shotgun if you actually know how to use one. I was comparing a standard pump gun shooting good 12 ga defensive ammo with a semiauto pistol caliber or .223 carbine taking into account normal Joe Blow behind the stock

4) LOUD indoors, almost as much as a FB - Who cares? If I go deaf for a day or two and live, it all good.
Many inexperienced shooters go temporarily deaf, become disoriented and loose night vision after discharging a short barrel shot gun indoors after just ONE round. Not a great end result when you have a BG (or several) in your house.

5) Mostly unsuitable for females and younger members of the household who might need an SD gun when you are not around - I began shooting shotguns with comfort at age 7. If the wife doesn't like 'em leave her the .38, whatever
Good for you, that is not the case with most folks. Many folks fire a 12 ga shotgun once and never want to do it again. I think it is fair to take into consideration the safaty needs of ALL members of the household, but that may be just me thinking that way.

6) Tough to handle a shotgun AND a light - If you know you own residence you should barely need a light if at all. I've found my way around my house (not a simple layout) in the wort shape you could imagine.

Right because walking around in the dark and shooting blindly because you know your way around your house is a great idea. A good light is ESSENTIAL for target identification.

7) Usually piss poor sighting systems - The shotgun is intended in ALL applications to point, not aim.
Oh dear God, my favorite line of gun store BS here. A shotgun at indoor defensive distances has a pellet spread of just inches. You need to aim it the same as a rifle or handgun for it to be effective. Then again when you walk around the house in the dark just point shooting your shotgun who cares about the bead no one can pick up under stress

8) 3-5 round capacity for most models - As well as fast, easy reloading. It's hard to miss or fumble w/ a 3" shell, almost 1" in diameter into the mag tube
That is just not true. I have seen plenty of folks that actually do this for aliving fumble shotgun reloads. In any case If you practice a lot and know what you are doing loading a shotgun ammo takes about a second per round. You can relopad a ful mag of ammo into a pistol or carbine in the same amount of time while maintaining a sight picture.

9) SLOW reloads - see above
Yep, see above

10) Expensive and punishing to shoot enough to become profient - What? Do you realize that many of us spend an entire WEEKEND shooting SGs. . . trap, skeet, sporting clays, etc. You can buy cases of target ammo at K-Mart for cheap, much less if you order from a supplier. Also, it doesn't take all that much practice to become proficient enough, unless you're trying to win medals.
Yes I'm sure that the three rounds of trap you shoot on Saturday using softball target loads make you a "proficient" defensive powerhouse with a shotgun. In an average range session I can blow through 250-500 rounds of 9mm, 40 S&W or 5.56 depending what I'm training with that day. I also use the FMJ equivalent of the ammo I use for SD. I want to see anyone here do 250-500 rounds of buckshot or slugs through a shotgun they plan on using to defend their lives. 250 rounds of 9mm runs about $60 if you shop at Wally World. What is the price of 250 rounds of buck or slugs nowadays?

I understand that for your average Joe Blow a shotgun is a reasonable HD weapon that can be bought cheap and mastered to a reasonable level in a fairly economical manner. I answered the way I did because the gentleman that posted the original question asked for a good RIFLE for HD. I'm assuming he did his homework and he picked his poison of choice. I did not intend to debate him or ridicule his pick specially since I agree with his choice.

Never meant to get into a debate. A rifle is not the right answer for all under all circumstances any more than a shotgun or handgun is. Every situation is different and the right tool for the job must be researched and trained with. I don't walk out of my bedroom with an AR just because I hear a bump in the night.

Entirely too many ignorant folks out there buy a 12 ga pistol gripped monstrosity, load it with all too powerful ammo and give it to the little woman and think they have a good self defense plan.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:55 PM   #35
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If one is to suggest a shotgun for an untrained woman or child to use when the "man" isn't home,I think a break barrel 20 gauge with a hammer is a good choice.Anyone can master the release button and hammer very easily,just leave the gun with a round or 2 of buckshot where they know where it is.

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Old 12-22-2009, 09:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by noyes View Post
It does not matter what weapon you chosie if you do not practice with it. You will find yourself in trouble , when you really need it. i.m.o.



Fast shotgun reloading, practice, practice

YouTube - Fast shotgun load by Vitaly Kruchin subtitled
Very true, very true. Practice is essential. Remember life for life, yours is first. Guns dont shoot intruders or themselves. Practice like you if your life is in real danger.

Another link for shotgun reloadin i like......

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Old 12-23-2009, 02:01 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wambli View Post
Well you guys asked, I answered. We disagree and all is well. The facts as we see them from both sides are there and folks can read them and just make their own minds up.

Sharing info and points of view is a great thing. Thanks for the lively discussion gentlemen.
Well, I liked it when this was your last post, but you're obviously insecure and have to always have the last word sort of guy.

I don't have the time to argue every one of your "get a mall ninja, super, pistol round shooting, AR 15 with night vision optics, 100,000,000 candle watt LED spotlight and a 150 round magazine" points that you argue.

Not even the "don't get a shotgun 'cause they're too powerful and they might knock my scronny little behind right on the floor, deafen and blind my entire family, next door neighbors and local police and allow several armed gang bangers to seize my home and take hostage all my loved ones" points.

If you're an average man which I believe the original poster was. A pump action shotgun is more than adequate for home defense.


Out.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:50 PM   #38
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Word...............................

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Old 12-27-2009, 05:13 AM   #39
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I too live out in the country and a few miles from another house... I have loads of semi auto rifles that i keep loaded, 2 Ak-47 1 AR-15 an SKS and Galil... I usually either keep then loaded with magazine in gun or magazines very close to the gun... But i agree a 12 gauge is usually more effective for home defence and in most situations would be the first gun i would grab. In that case i have a mossberg 590...

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Old 01-11-2010, 02:59 AM   #40
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Default Shotgun & a revolver...

Mossberg 590 pump... 8 rounds at your disposal. A revolver (357's are nice)... pull the trigger and it goes bang! No worries about one in the chamber or not... cocked & locked or not... raking slides... safety on or off, etc... I leave 38P+ loaded in the wife's 357 though when I'm not home. A little easier for her to handle shock and flash wise.

All that said though, I do also keep one of my 1911's and an AK handy and ready to go just in case I need more firepower.

Capt Jim

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