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Old 08-24-2012, 10:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by The_Kid View Post
Of course you can. One way is not to break-in the barrel for close to 30 years, then preform a break-in procedure.
This only helps prove my point
Your theory is that the only reason for your mirror-like bore is that for X numbers of rounds you cleaned the barrel after every discharge and your pictures prove that you did make an improvement. At this point in time it is impossible to go back to that initial barrel condition and fire exactly the same number of rounds without cleaning between rounds and compare the results.

You have achieved good results and there is no reason to change what you do but as far as the overall study of barrel break-in, your evidence is anecdotal not scientific.
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:22 AM   #22
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Hard to beleive the old m-24 takes that many rounds to break in unless they were closer to old production quality , just heavier. The new ones atleast in SS R5 barrels should be ready to shot to there best quickly. But they will know the quality of the finish and it may be simpler to just shoot and clean.

I have a Remington SS 5R mill-spec and I did break in the barrel. I didn't follow that entire process but not far from it, and I'm thinking it was over kill? You're right it was pretty smooth out of the box. On a side note, it's ironically finicky about fouling. It takes about 10 fouling shots after cleaning to settle down. Groups on the first 10 or even 12 shots are just over an inch. After that it puts them all in the same hole, and I don't mean a large ragged hole from bullets touching. I literally mean one .30 caliber size hole (well maybe .35 caliber).

I haven't fired many shots after it settles in (10 or 15) without cleaning so I have no idea when it will start to open up from the fouling. I'm still cleaning regularly and hoping the barrel will settle on in and start grouping like that after only 2 or 3 fouling shots? That is also with only 175gr HPBT. I haven't tried any other bullets yet.

And since Ruger was brought up, I bought a slightly used mini14 last year. Cleaning the fouling from the barrel cut my shot group by more than half. That barrel was the roughest I've seen so I went through my normal break in process despite it being used and it made a dramatic difference. The reason I mention that is many of use don't think of going through a lot trouble setting up semi autos. We just assume they aren't going to shoot as well as a bolt action and we then just run rounds through them. I personally believe most semi autos have the potential to shoot very well with some extra work.

Here's a photo of a 5 shot group I posted in the mini section for the mini shooting challenge (that I have yet to beat). I was trying out a new load and only had 5 rounds of this load.
mini-target-close.jpg

Minus the first shot which was my fault, that's a pretty decent 100 yard group for a semi-auto carbine. My first shot group with that gun was over three inches. I've done some tinkering to it but the primary difference was just the basics: Clean the fouling, break in the barrel so that it won't foul as quickly, and find a load it likes.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:47 PM   #23
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People will always argue about barrel break in procedure's.
If you don't believe in it,that's just fine,but I know all of my rifles shoot very,very good and are very easy to clean with very little copper fouling.

Some guy's are happy if their rifles shoot 1"-2" groups,but unless mine shoot around or under 1/2" groups with hunting loads,I'm not happy,and every rifle I have shoots this good or better,and I personally believe that by breaking in the barrel's,it helps these rifles shoot as good as they do.

I just finished the initial break in on my new 7mm-08 barrel,I'll begin loading some test loads for it and then go to the range and see just what it's going to do.

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Old 08-26-2012, 12:29 AM   #24
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TLuker Odd the way your barrel shoots. Many guys are not happy with remmy's quality over the last few years . maybe just the way there barrels are today. I only have a couple centerfire rifles .One is all 1976 remmy and I am lucky a think that it is a good shooter with that first clean or fouled cold barrel. Makes for a good hutning rifle. My ruger sounds kinda like your but never would settle down. Ruger was good about it and check it recut the crown and shot it again then rebarreled it. better but not what you want from a 7mm mag. Figure to ether sell it or rebarrel it. getting a quality smithy to rebarrel a ruger was not easy but glad I did . Now I can heat up the barel a bit and then shot for group . Come back later that day an take one shot and have it place inside the group with a fouled barrel. been like that for 15 years.

Hell yes thats a good group from a mini14, even with a called flier. Did the handload make it a good shooter or would factory stuff do fairly well. never owned one but shot one back ,,many years ago it turned me off. More like a ak than something made here. HA

I bought a M&P sport for real good reason but darn thing shoots like your mini. R5 barrel,melonite treated. Cleans like nothing should new. I did not treat it well. Clean it a fired 100 rounds and only oil the bolt down well. during shooting. That rifle will shoot ar223 ammo to 1 1/4" and wolf gold match at 3/4". Only s&w I own.

What bullets and velocity you loading for the 700 . Maybe for what you could have invested in that rifle you might give remmy CS a call and see if they have any ideas why its not solid shooter when cold . 4 foulng shots should settle most rifles. They might like to give it some fine tuneing for you. What do you think of that x-mark trigger. A jewel set about 1lb would be real good . Only thing I have over 2lb is on my m&p sport and I truely feel a 5lb AR trigger was sent from the devil.

TXhiibilly Another picky rifleman?? Let us all know how that 7-08 does .

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Old 08-26-2012, 12:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billt View Post
http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

Gale McMillan, one of the best barrel makers of all time, summed up "Barrel break In's" quite well in this article. For what it's worth, I agree with every word of it for the same reason he did. In over 40 years of shooting, I have yet to see or hear anyone prove otherwise.
After reading this article I think this guy knows what he is talking about. What he had to say makes sense to me.

I have never used a structured "break-in" procedures for any of my rifles, but I have cleaned them thoroughly and carefully after each use. I use only a quality one-piece cleaning rod and caliber-specific patch jags, not the loop patch holders. I use a rod guide also.

Even the bore of my Model 94, which I have been shooting 39 years, is in great condition and it still shoots straight and true.

I think some folks get a bit carried away with their barrel break-ins.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:17 PM   #26
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TLuker Odd the way your barrel shoots. Many guys are not happy with remmy's quality over the last few years . maybe just the way there barrels are today. I only have a couple centerfire rifles .One is all 1976 remmy and I am lucky a think that it is a good shooter with that first clean or fouled cold barrel. Makes for a good hutning rifle. My ruger sounds kinda like your but never would settle down. Ruger was good about it and check it recut the crown and shot it again then rebarreled it. better but not what you want from a 7mm mag. Figure to ether sell it or rebarrel it. getting a quality smithy to rebarrel a ruger was not easy but glad I did . Now I can heat up the barel a bit and then shot for group . Come back later that day an take one shot and have it place inside the group with a fouled barrel. been like that for 15 years.

Hell yes thats a good group from a mini14, even with a called flier. Did the handload make it a good shooter or would factory stuff do fairly well. never owned one but shot one back ,,many years ago it turned me off. More like a ak than something made here. HA

I bought a M&P sport for real good reason but darn thing shoots like your mini. R5 barrel,melonite treated. Cleans like nothing should new. I did not treat it well. Clean it a fired 100 rounds and only oil the bolt down well. during shooting. That rifle will shoot ar223 ammo to 1 1/4" and wolf gold match at 3/4". Only s&w I own.

What bullets and velocity you loading for the 700 . Maybe for what you could have invested in that rifle you might give remmy CS a call and see if they have any ideas why its not solid shooter when cold . 4 foulng shots should settle most rifles. They might like to give it some fine tuneing for you. What do you think of that x-mark trigger. A jewel set about 1lb would be real good . Only thing I have over 2lb is on my m&p sport and I truely feel a 5lb AR trigger was sent from the devil.

TXhiibilly Another picky rifleman?? Let us all know how that 7-08 does .
To be honest I'm not particularly happy with Remington right now, and I'm a die hard Remington fan. The throat is way to deep on the 5R. Bullet speed, or amount of powder, hasn't seemed to make much of a difference, but seating depth was a major factor in accuracy. I'm loading bullets so long, because of the throat depth, that rounds won't fit in the magazine. I've considered having the chamber re-cut just because of the throat depth but I'm not to that point yet.

I'm still playing with the cleaning and fouling shots routine. Heat really isn't a factor in the groups its just the fouling shots. I can let it cool completely after those fouling shots and it still drives tacks. I guess it just likes a little more fouling than most?

Other than the throat depth (which is major) I'm really happy with that rifle. The trigger is great out of the box, and I haven't touched it. It's probably around 3lbs which is fine by me. I prefer all my triggers to stay at three pounds or more just for safety reasons.

I'm about to start playing with some hunting rounds now for deer season. Maybe that'll give better results? Or even better, maybe I'll learn something new.

My mini normally shoots around 1" to an 1 1/4" with decent factory ammo, but again that's after really cleaning the barrel. The barrels are also heavier on the later model mini's and that has really helped their out of the box accuracy. That group came from a load using IMR 4064. That's the same powder I'm using for .308's in the 5R. I'm really liking that powder.



The mini is also a good example of how most of us think about semi-auto's. I've got a buddy with an older thinner barreled mini and his doesn't shoot very well at all. He loves the way mine shoots and he blames his mini for his groups. At the same time he has never done anything to get his to shoot any better, and I've done some work to get mine to where it is. Breaking in a barrel and regular maintenance is time consuming. Trying different rounds to find one a gun likes can be time consuming and expensive. I'm convinced I could get his to shoot much much better with a little work - again just the basics. That same friend has done some work to his bull barrel .308. Many of us expect to put in a little effort to get our bolt actions shooting well, but then we buy the cheapest surplus ammo we can find for our semi-autos and just blast away. Then we're not happy with the accuracy. That's just something for some semi-auto shooters to keep in mind.


I'm also still working on my mini. My quick detach mounts came loose while I was shooting that day and I have a much better set of mounts now. I've also got to load some more bullets and really put in some trigger time with that load.
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Old 08-26-2012, 06:04 PM   #27
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:55 AM   #28
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The only point is.... my Broke In barrel will out shoot yours, Can shoot more rounds before fouling occurs because it was CLEAN and SMOOTH. Theres no set in stone ABC- 123 set of steps. Every barrel is different, some stop fouling after 5 cleanings some never stop, barrels that continue to foul are a nature of the beast and need to be filed. Im a fire lapper, it works but freaks alot of people out, it doesnt fix every barrel but can make a good barrel better. Saves alot of cleaning and farting around. Not every barrel will shoot good but a bad barrel is rare. Use your tater, shoot 1 round and clean, shoot 1 round and clean etc... after a few rounds shoot 5 and see if you get copper, if you do then fire lap, if not your prolly gtg.

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Old 08-27-2012, 01:15 AM   #29
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Throat length is a whole nother animal, being "in the lands" does make a difference but its such a small issue its not worth discussing on a factory chamber. If your blaming your disgust on seating depth youve prolly missing something else much less basic. Try another powder, bullet, fps etc. Some guns dont like speed! A fast miss is no more impressive then a slow miss. Do your homework, look at what rate of twist you have, look at the weight bullet your trying to use, what are you trying to accomplish.... its all been done before. Trying to shoot 125gr bullets threw your 1 in 10 twist .308 isnt gonna work....get it? Its a long road to accuracy and you have to look at the whole picture, which requires some homework and trial and error. Alot more error then anything. Best of luck.

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Old 08-27-2012, 08:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The_Kid View Post
Calling the lapping action "wear" isn't clever.
It's not meant to be "clever". It's a fact. Every time you pull the trigger to send a bullet down the barrel, you burn powder to do it. The burning of the powder, along with the heat it generates, produces far more wear than the bullet passing through it. As McMillan said, every time you pull the trigger, you have shortened the life of your barrel by one round. Barrels all have limited life. The more you shoot them, (regardless of the reason, or what you think is happening inside your barrel when you do it), the more they will wear. You can call it "lapping action", or tag it with any name you want. The fact remains if you waste 50 rounds "breaking in" a barrel, you've shortened it's life by that same number of said rounds. There is no way of getting around this. Thinking that all of this wear is accomplishing something positive, is like saying a car with 5,000 miles on it is better than a new one off the showroom floor. It is nothing more than the same vehicle that is 5,000 miles closer to the end of it's service life.
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