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Old 01-31-2014, 08:24 PM   #1
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Default 30 M1 Carbine - Why?

We were wondering what drove the U.S. Ordiance Dept. in 1940, to adopt the 30 M1 Carbine round rather than the more powerful 357 Magnum. Seems the 9 mm Parabellum with double stack magazine even would have been a better choice for the intended purpose. There was no other weapon chambered for the 30 Carbine, and few have been since WWII. Was it because the 357 Mag was a rimmed cartridge and difficult to make a reliable magazine for?

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Old 01-31-2014, 08:35 PM   #2
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The .357 Magnum was never even considered. Contenders were the 351 Win. Self Loading and .35 WSL, among a few others. Smith & Wesson had made the 9mm Light Rifle for the British, but that was doomed from the start for the US.

Winchester had several different designs, but the Williams piston arrangement took the attention of the Army Ordanance. The M1 carbine was designed for officers in rear areas where the chance of encounter was considered slight.

I had the opportunity several times to carry the M2 Carbine and at close range it seemed to be pretty effective.

I still don't consider the M1 Carbine to be a carbine, as it does fire a pistol cartridge. As such, according to my definition, it should be classed as a light rifle. The characteristics of a carbine is that it fire the standard rifle round, as the 1892 Krag carbines. While the 1873 carbines fired the reduced carbine load, they were capable of firing the standard infantry round.

Just my thinking on the matter.

Bob Wright

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Old 01-31-2014, 08:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redscho View Post
We were wondering what drove the U.S. Ordiance Dept. in 1940, to adopt the 30 M1 Carbine round rather than the more powerful 357 Magnum. Seems the 9 mm Parabellum with double stack magazine even would have been a better choice for the intended purpose. There was no other weapon chambered for the 30 Carbine, and few have been since WWII. Was it because the 357 Mag was a rimmed cartridge and difficult to make a reliable magazine for?
firstly it takes a long time to produce a revolver or semi auto pistol. it takes very little time to produce a m1 carbine. speed of production.

secondly the 30m1 carbine is a more powerful round than a 357 magnum in fmj format, by a lot. the closest a 357 round comes to a 30carbine in performance is a few loadings from buffalo bore and those still fall short by about 100ft lbs of energy...

thirdly range, the 30 carbine has better terminal ballistics than a 357 at range means its easier to get hits.

lastly it was intended for crew served items of combats and non combat personal. but due to the shortage of m1 garand m1903 m1917 m1a1 it was pressed into frontline service because it was available and better than sending troops off with a sharp stick.

i wouldnt feel unarmed with one they are damn fast with extremely quick followup shots little to no recoil and at cqb range DAMNED effective. the 30 carbine only loses its chow once you get to 100+ yards. troops that fought in cities loved it troops that fought across fields hated it.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:42 PM   #4
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http://www.legacysports.com/m-1-9mm-carbine

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Old 01-31-2014, 08:46 PM   #5
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The .357 Magnum was never even considered. Contenders were the 351 Win. Self Loading and .35 WSL, among a few others. Smith & Wesson had made the 9mm Light Rifle for the British, but that was doomed from the start for the US.Bob Wright
Not hard to see why after this report on the S&W Light Rifle.
http://www.guns.com/2013/04/05/smith-and-wesson-light-rifle-model-1940/
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:01 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=JonM;1495636] SNIP
secondly the 30m1 carbine is a more powerful round than a 357 magnum in fmj format, by a lot. the closest a 357 round comes to a 30carbine in performance is a few loadings from buffalo bore and those still fall short by about 100ft lbs of energy...

I'm a little confused with this statement. My Hornady relaoding manual gaives the 30 Carbine 1900 fps with a 110 grain bullet, while the 357 has 1900 fps with a 125 gr bullet. Wouldn't the 357 will FMJ be more powerful? What am I missing here?

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Old 01-31-2014, 09:14 PM   #7
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[quote=redscho;1495651]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM View Post
SNIP
secondly the 30m1 carbine is a more powerful round than a 357 magnum in fmj format, by a lot. the closest a 357 round comes to a 30carbine in performance is a few loadings from buffalo bore and those still fall short by about 100ft lbs of energy...

I'm a little confused with this statement. My Hornady relaoding manual gaives the 30 Carbine 1900 fps with a 110 grain bullet, while the 357 has 1900 fps with a 125 gr bullet. Wouldn't the 357 will FMJ be more powerful? What am I missing here?
you cant achieve those velocities in a revolver...

the 357 is a rimmed cartridge and doesnt really fed well in a magazine. while the 357 outperforms the 30 carbine when chambered in a lever gun, a levergun is hardly a good or even soso go to war weapon. they were great firearms when your enemy is armed with bow and arrow but not something you really want o assault machine gun nests with.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:24 PM   #8
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[quote=JonM;1495657]

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you cant achieve those velocities in a revolver...

the 357 is a rimmed cartridge and doesnt really fed well in a magazine. while the 357 outperforms the 30 carbine when chambered in a lever gun, a levergun is hardly a good or even soso go to war weapon. they were great firearms when your enemy is armed with bow and arrow but not something you really want o assault machine gun nests with.
What I was quoting from Hornady for both 30 carbine and 357 Mag was for rifle loads. Being a rimmed cartridge may be the only good reason the 357 Mag was not chosen.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
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What I was quoting from Hornady for both 30 carbine and 357 Mag was for rifle loads. Being a rimmed cartridge may be the only good reason the 357 Mag was not chosen.
yes and the need wasnt for yet another rifle that was time consuming and difficult to produce. hence no levergun in ww2 chambered in 357mag. at the time we were pressing every revolver we had into service and backstocks werent enough.

a major requirement was simplicity of production.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:38 PM   #10
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Also, add the fact that most revolver ammunition has a "roll" crimp.
To use that in a semi-auto can lead to jams.
(Yes, I am aware that some semi-auto pistols were chambered in the .357 Magnum).

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