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Old 08-11-2012, 04:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by 303tom View Post
Only in war are you not to shoot humans with hollow or soft point bullets, so says the Geneva Convention............Self Defense in the real world is something else, I say use JHP`s...........
Now I implore you to show me one factory loaded 30-30 jhp.

30-30 is a good defense against Indians, in movies, in Hollywood .... not real.

A really bad idea.
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Old 08-11-2012, 05:22 PM   #12
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Only in war are you not to shoot humans with hollow or soft point bullets, so says the Geneva Convention............Self Defense in the real world is something else, I say use JHP`s...........
303, it is the hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva convention. The Hague convention was about arms, Geneva is about human rights.
Declaration 3, 1899 hague convention:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp


BTW, The U.S. never signed this portion.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:00 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Armed-Citizen View Post
ture and i agree, though when all is said and done, will court go into specifics and say " you ccant use that type of round for sd, its inhumane or cruel"?
hope you understand what im trying to say correctly
A lawyer will say what ever he thinks will help win his case. In a self defense situation you use whatever "weapon" is at hand, be it a knife, a gun, a brick or your own hands. It could be argued that it is inhumane or cruel to clobber some bad guy in the head with a lamp, but if it is all you had, you do what needs to be done to stop the threat and preserve your own life. Load that old lever gun with a factory round and hope you never need to use it on another human. But if you do, remember this, "I shot because I was in fear for my and to stop the threat". Oh yea, maybe consider getting a shot gun or some kind of handgun.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:18 PM   #14
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I know of NO humane way to shoot anybody with a metallic bullet. ANY metallic bullet. With the exception of NJ which does not permit you to CARRY hollow point handgun ammo, I know of no state laws or court rulings on the use of a JSP bullet in self defense.

Whether you were justified in shooting someone will be MUCH more at the forefront of your concerns. Me- I am a peace loving man- but when the lives of myself and my family were in imminent danger, as my last resort, I grabbed my deer rifle (sounds SO much better than "I grabbed my Operator Tactical Zombie Terminator with the muzzle brake, laser, flashlight, bayonet, corkscrew, and fish scaler")

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Old 08-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #15
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Go online and look at your State's penal code. I seriously doubt you will find any reference to what kind of ammo is acceptable and what kind of ammo is unacceptable for shooting people. A good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of the ammo or weapon used.
Very good advice given above. Get it direct from the source rather than on here. If you do have to go to court you will get a lot further with a printed version of the State Statue on State Letterhead than you will with a printed copy of this thread.

Seeing as you are talking about California don't "ASSume" anything when it comes to gun laws. Those people are nuts. Each state will be different and often times the rules will even change in a different county. I believe it is New Jersey where any type of hollow point ammo is illegal for civilian carry.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
...when the lives of myself and my family were in imminent danger, as my last resort, I grabbed my deer rifle (sounds SO much better than "I grabbed my Operator Tactical Zombie Terminator with the muzzle brake, laser, flashlight, bayonet, corkscrew, and fish scaler")
That's funny, right there. I just imagined a court room scene in which a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney is holding up your gun of choice. Definitely 2 different pictures conjured up if he/she picks up a wood-stocked lever gun with peep sights vs a black rifle with red dot, 30-round mag, and tactical light.

But ultimately, "I was in fear for my life and I had to stop the threat," should win out every time...hopefully.

All of that said, I love love love my 30-30 Marlin!!!
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jpattersonnh View Post
303, it is the hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva convention. The Hague convention was about arms, Geneva is about human rights.
Declaration 3, 1899 hague convention:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp


BTW, The U.S. never signed this portion.
Thank you. One of my pet peaves is referring to the wrong international treaty. I believe hollow point/frangible ammo is only forbidden when used against uniformed forces of an opposing government's military. Non uniformed insurgents do not share this protection.

I have heard a rumor the SF types in "the Stan" use 5.56 mm 69gr OTM (Open Tip Match) ammo in their rifles. OTM is a fancy way of saying accurate hollow point.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
Thank you. One of my pet peaves is referring to the wrong international treaty. I believe hollow point/frangible ammo is only forbidden when used against uniformed forces of an opposing government's military. Non uniformed insurgents do not share this protection.

I have heard a rumor the SF types in "the Stan" use 5.56 mm 69gr OTM (Open Tip Match) ammo in their rifles. OTM is a fancy way of saying accurate hollow point.
77gr Sierra OTM. Mk262 and Mk262 mod1 rounds. A new penetrator round is also being introduced.

The Sierra bullet was deemed OK, because the open tip is a result of the manufacturing process for accuracy and not a part of design for the purpose of expansion or fragmentation. The fragmentation is just a side effect.

For self defense a civilian can use pretty much anything legal.

I was not stating that a lawyer would win using the argument that a hollow point or soft point bullet ws used. Just stating that a lawyer would try to use anything against you if his services are retained by the family of the person shot. The argument should also be countered by a competent attorny on the side of someone using their firearm in self defense.

A levergun may not be as slick of a defensive weapon as more modern designs, but I wouldn't rule it out as an effective defensive tool, by saying that it works great on Indians and in movies.

I seem to remember a standoff about 10 years ago where a man baracaded himself in his home and held the police off for over a day with a .30-30. He was punching through their body armor that was only rated against pistols. They thought he had an assault rifle. After he was over run and found dead. the rifle was revealed to be a .30-30, not an evil black rifle.

Not ideal, but effective if the user knows how to run it. An action as fast as a pump shotgun, good penetration, high energy, ammo made to create large wound channels. Ploitically correct, in that good guys used them to win the west, no bayonet lugs, no flash hiders, no high cap mags, no pistol grip that the liberal folks are in a hurry to ban. Down sides are limited capacity with limited ability to reload, much like a shotgun.

People who live behind the lines in states that still have an AWB in effect can usually get their hands on one of these. Jeff Cooper used to refer to these as a Long Island Assault Gun because it could be as close to a "fighting rifle" that could be obtained in New York.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:35 PM   #19
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I would think that a 125 grain softpoint is the best ammo available for self/home defense with a .30-30.

But a shotgun would be a lot better.. a good short double barrel loaded with two rounds of 00 Buck will stop just about anything that's likely to invade your home.

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Old 08-11-2012, 09:51 PM   #20
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The OTMRP is a huge advantage over mk262 and m855. It essentially replaces both.

Terminal ballistics of a traditional HP, but don't you dare call it a hollow point, with the pill that can still penetrate armor.

I can't wait to get some.

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