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Old 09-29-2013, 01:06 PM   #61
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I don't think many people that pack a .44 mag or even a .454 in bear country consider it adequate for bear. It's much better than having nothing but a sharp stick to protect your self with. There's a big difference between just being in bear country, hiking horse packing or whatever with a one in a million chance that you might have to shoot a bear, and actually going out with the intention or tangling with a bear. Then you'd best be packing a .45/70 with heavy loads, a .338 Mag. or something similar. I think the O.P. was talking about a load for the .30/30 for going after grizzly,not just carrying it for defense while recreating in the mountains. First, you have to be in grizzly country, where they are not protected, like in Yellowstone. The only ones outside of Alaska and Western Canada are in Northwest Wyoming, Southwest and Northwest Montana, and possibly a few in North Idaho and Washington near the Canadian border. Then you either have to surprise a bear at close range while it's feeding, get too near a mother with cubs, or be real sloppy with food around your camp to increase the odds of a bear encounter that goes bad. I have been hiking and hunting in bear country for 40 years, have seen around 15 grizzlies in that time, and had only one charge me, and that was a false charge. My point being, handguns are for a last ditch defense, not for hunting big bears.
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Old 09-29-2013, 02:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
The 416 rigby and the cartridges that spawned from it are staples for African dangerous game. Thousands of animals much larger than anything in North America have fallen with a single shot from one of these rifles. Now you are going to say that a 45/70 is more capable than a rifle family that shoots 450 gr bullets at 2,286 ft/s delivering 5,223 ft·lb of energy? Come on Jim, I know you can think this one through.
I never said any one gun or one caliber is more or less capable of anything here.
I said the use of energy numbers ONLY when discussing the effectiveness of firearms is VERY MISLEADING and many other facts MUST be considered nothing more.
But since you mentioned it, there was an article about a hunter who took a 45-70 Marlin to the Dark continent to hunt Cape Buffs and the PH was very reluctant to allow him to use it but did. There was one shot where he killed TWO (2) with one shot. The PH started to use the Marlin as his backup rifle after his experience with it. I am very fond of the 416. I think it is one of the best, if not the best dangerous game calibers out there with several different cartridges to choose from.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:57 PM   #63
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One of the things VERY FEW know or consider is the amount of 'energy' the bullet uses to destroy itself (wasted energy). But that is another of the things you never hear a discussion about! Momentum values are not skewed by squaring the velocity as the above formula shows, thus manufacturers of ammunition never show them because they won't sell the new 'hot' wonder calibers unless they have those 'awesome' energy numbers. Momentum is the 'push' that gets the job done. That is why if the bullet does not retain enough weight it will not get to where it is needed. So you need to compare BOTH the numbers not just the energy. The other thing which needs consideration is the cross sectional area which is not figured into the ability cause the 'wound' when you look at energy #'s only. The TKO (Taylor Knock Out) value uses the bullet diameter in their values which does start to consider the CSA, but most people get too hung up at comparing loads with the energy #'s to consider the MANY other factors which MUST be considered when choosing the right bullet for the job.
And last but not least is the bullet construction, which has to be tailored to the impact velocity and intended target to be effective.
The point is 'don't get to hung up on the energy as it not the only thing that makes for a good hunting bullet/caliber.'
I did add the BC and SD in my post, for the specific reason of showing potential. I completely understand what you are talking about. I also used barnes solid brass bullets as that would be a good choice and gives a good comparitive base. It is a fact that the bullet that retains weight in a given class will penetrate better. We do agree on many points. I wish you would share more and clarify what you have posted.

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The 416 rigby and the cartridges that spawned from it are staples for African dangerous game. Thousands of animals much larger than anything in North America have fallen with a single shot from one of these rifles. Now you are going to say that a 45/70 is more capable than a rifle family that shoots 450 gr bullets at 2,286 ft/s delivering 5,223 ft·lb of energy? Come on Jim, I know you can think this one through.
We are talking Grizzly. OK great bear. A Barnes Solid 400gr has 5550fpe at the muzzle of the .416 rigby, No one is shooting the muzzle against a target. It looses about 60fpe for every 50 yards it travels. It also has very heavy recoil. You screw up the 1st shot, can you recover and make a second shot before you are lunch??
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:04 AM   #64
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Right now I have MANY irons in the fire so I get on here when I get a few minutes to spare. If things slow down to a dull roar I will try and be more detailed and specific.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:36 PM   #65
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I think a 30-30 would have no problem taking care of a grizzly. I would feel comfortable with it. But if you're in bear country I would invest in a s&w .500 . It's a must have out there .
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:41 PM   #66
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I think a 30-30 would have no problem taking care of a grizzly. I would feel comfortable with it. But if you're in bear country I would invest in a s&w .500 . It's a must have out there .
Just curious. How many grizzly bears have you seen in the wild at less than 100 yds???
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:51 PM   #67
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Just curious. How many grizzly bears have you seen in the wild at less than 100 yds???
None! I hope I go to my grave never seeing a live grizzly up close and personal. I am even scared of the bears at the zoo.
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:48 PM   #68
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4570 guide gun modified for 458 win mag also check on the internet big game hunter takes all of Africa's dangerous big game with 4570 loaded with 400 grain hammerhead bullits
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:51 PM   #69
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Have loaded marlin 4570 with 325 grain flextip with 60 grains imr 4320 very good load took a nice black bear in pa with it
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:44 PM   #70
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4570 guide gun modified for 458 win mag also check on the internet big game hunter takes all of Africa's dangerous big game with 4570 loaded with 400 grain hammerhead bullits
It is not safe to chamber a guide gun, intended for .45-70 to .458WM. Depending on the model they are rated for 40,000 CUP to 50,000 CUP. The cartridge can produce pressures over 50,000 CUP. It also would need a complete new bolt, that does not exist for the cartridge.

Bell took many Elephant w/ a 7x57, but it was not the norm. The Hammerhead is still only a Cast lead bullet. That 400gr is no where near enough for Africa's big 5.
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