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Old 10-11-2013, 10:27 PM   #61
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Doc, I've read many of you posts and trust your judgement implicitly.
Since I started this thread, I have carried nothing but FMJ. I have seen
many videos of the penetration of various types of rounds fired into
ballistics gel and it just doesn't convince me that is the same as the
human body.

I may be too set in my ways and I know you didn't say anything about
ballistics gel. The bone factor does enter the picture, though, and
clothing as well, but a 1 in. thick piece of pine doesn't stop a JHP and
that's pretty hard stuff compared to bone.

I'm really not trying to dispute your reasoning, just trying to provoke
more discussion on the topic. I truly like my .44 mag. for penetration!
I just can't carry it in my pocket without suspenders.

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Old 10-11-2013, 11:45 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etbob9 View Post
Doc, I've read many of you posts and trust your judgement implicitly.
Since I started this thread, I have carried nothing but FMJ. I have seen
many videos of the penetration of various types of rounds fired into
ballistics gel and it just doesn't convince me that is the same as the
human body.

I may be too set in my ways and I know you didn't say anything about
ballistics gel. The bone factor does enter the picture, though, and
clothing as well, but a 1 in. thick piece of pine doesn't stop a JHP and
that's pretty hard stuff compared to bone.

I'm really not trying to dispute your reasoning, just trying to provoke
more discussion on the topic. I truly like my .44 mag. for penetration!
I just can't carry it in my pocket without suspenders.
Using pine will give you some misleading results. Pine doesn't have 80% water, and it also doesn't flex like the chest wall does. With anything up to and including a 9mm you're almost as likely to have a bullet follow the rib as you are to have it penetrate, especially if the projectile distorts to conform to the shape of the bone.

Let me try to explain a little bit more. A projectile does not do a clean cut as it initially passes through tissue. It tends to be more of a ripping effect. As the initial contact occurs the skin will attempt to move along the path of the bullet until it rips. You can do a half baked demonstration of this by trying to push through Saran Wrap with your fingertip. Get a couple friends to hold the wrap in a square and then try to push trough the center of the wrap. As you push you can see the wrap try to move with your finger until you stretch it to the point where it rips. A projectile does about the same thing to skin, just with a lot more energy.

Going back to the Saran Wrap, make another sheet the same size, and get the same friends to hold it. Now try to push through it with your fist. It will take much more energy to push the larger object through. Remember, push, not punch.

So, considering we are working with a finite amount of energy, where do you want to spend it? Do you want expansion to deplete the energy nearer the surface due to increased diameter, or do you want the energy spent on more penetration with a smaller diameter?

All of this fails to take into consideration the profile of the bullet. Most JHP has a flatter profile than most FMJ. Profile will also help with penetration. To grossly over exaggerate this one, would you rather stab an attacker with a stiletto or a frozen hot dog?

I know there are some purists out there that are foaming at the mouth right now, but remember the caliber we are talking about. I do agree with Hatcher about cross-section, but not in calibers that are known for inadequate penetration. If you can't get it big and deep, get it deep. That's where the organs are.
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:55 PM   #63
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im in agreement with doc on this. 380acp and similar rounds and below should be fmj 9mm and up hp for self defense.

gelatin is a nice neat medium but goblins tend not to stand there arms at the side waiting to be shot by the calvary in the white hats. they tend to be trying to do you great bodily harm with things like arms in front of the vitals or side on offering a much thicker cross section with arms in the way of the bullet.

thats not considering ribs and breast bone. maybe if your john mcclain with the 380 taped to your back ready to shoot the bad guy and its written into the script the 380 hp will slide between the ribs and tap the heart resulting in a one shot stop. stick with the fmj in a 380

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Old 10-11-2013, 11:59 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etbob9 View Post
Doc, I've read many of you posts and trust your judgement implicitly.
Since I started this thread, I have carried nothing but FMJ. I have seen
many videos of the penetration of various types of rounds fired into
ballistics gel and it just doesn't convince me that is the same as the
human body.

I may be too set in my ways and I know you didn't say anything about
ballistics gel. The bone factor does enter the picture, though, and
clothing as well, but a 1 in. thick piece of pine doesn't stop a JHP and
that's pretty hard stuff compared to bone.

I'm really not trying to dispute your reasoning, just trying to provoke
more discussion on the topic. I truly like my .44 mag. for penetration!
I just can't carry it in my pocket without suspenders.

I will say pine is less like a human body. when evaluating HP ammo, fluid must be present if you want to check expansion. Gell has this, Pine not so much. I wouldn't rely on one shot from my .380, I plan on pulling teh trigger mutiple times if it is required.
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Old 11-29-2013, 12:10 AM   #65
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My EDC is a Kahr CW-9. My LCP is my pocket gun for church or any other place where I need to tuck my shirt in.

Maybe I should consider FMJ for the .380. I currently use Hornady Critical Defense in both guns.

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Old 11-29-2013, 09:42 AM   #66
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Quote:
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My EDC is a Kahr CW-9. My LCP is my pocket gun for church or any other place where I need to tuck my shirt in.

Maybe I should consider FMJ for the .380. I currently use Hornady Critical Defense in both guns.
This thread has convinced me to use FMJ .380 ammo. The LCP is my EDC
because it is always in my pocket and I forget it's there. I often carry my
Taurus 709 with JHP, but it is in addition to my LCP.

I feel the best EDC is the weapon you will always have with you and
comfort has a lot to do with that. For me, my LCP "fits the bill" perfectly!

Thanks to everyone responding to this thread. It has opened my eyes to
the effectivity of the .380 in some respects I hadn't given much thought
to! I actually trust it more now.
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Old 11-30-2013, 05:52 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etbob9
This thread has convinced me to use FMJ .380 ammo. The LCP is my EDC because it is always in my pocket and I forget it's there. I often carry my Taurus 709 with JHP, but it is in addition to my LCP. I feel the best EDC is the weapon you will always have with you and comfort has a lot to do with that. For me, my LCP "fits the bill" perfectly! Thanks to everyone responding to this thread. It has opened my eyes to the effectivity of the .380 in some respects I hadn't given much thought to! I actually trust it more now.
One of Mine & my wife's older woman friends has a Bersa 380 for HD/SD. I convinced her after showing her some threads here at the Library( she is the coordinator there where my wife & I volunteer teach 1X per week) when she asked me about HPs for her Gun. She now only shoots FMJs.
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:10 PM   #68
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I had a P3AT and an LCP. I now have a Sig P238. Small, accurate and a pleasure to shoot. One other big advantage of FMJ is the cost. I have been carrying with XTP's which dont expand as much as the rest of the HP's and give better penetration.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:29 PM   #69
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Like it or not, small 380 pistols you can stick in your pocket are much more likely to malfunction than a larger pistol. FMJ ammo feeds better than HP ammo. This isn't my opinion, it is a statistical fact that pocket 380 pistols are less reliable than larger pistols. Small 380 pistols come back to the manufacturer more often than any other gun in their line up.

Just because your pocket 380 ate 40 HP bullets doesn't mean it will eat them all of the time. Not many people will buy 250 hollow point rounds to really test their 380. Hell, if someone gave me 250 hollow point SD rounds to test my 380 I would have a hard to shooting them all. My 357 is easier on my hand than my Kel Tec P 3AT.

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Old 11-30-2013, 07:47 PM   #70
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i have a Bersa Thunder 380 that functions great with any ammo i have put through it. great pistol and not too small and not too large. the Bersa Thunder series so far has a pretty good reputation as good solid performing pistols that are well made and decently accurate at an attractive price.

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