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Old 01-30-2013, 06:01 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by tampamiketaylor View Post

Hey guys,

I really appreciate your productive responses on this topic. This kind of debate may seem aggressive by some but it is a sure way to uncover different POV’s and highlight some excellent points. These points really help gather the facts needed to form a decision. Seems that both the Sig 1911 and the p226 are still excellent candidates to look at. I will shoot them both and try to make the decision. Does anyone know if Sig offers conversion kits for the 1911 nightmare platform to other cals such as 9 and 40?

Thanks again!
Mike
You should be able to find the answer to that question by going to the Sig Sauer website. However I know when it came to my 9 conversion I had to look to EFK Firedragon and Wolf websites as far as going to a 22.lr I would go with the exchange kit from Sig Sauer.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:35 PM   #22
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You should be able to find the answer to that question by going to the Sig Sauer website. However I know when it came to my 9 conversion I had to look to EFK Firedragon and Wolf websites as far as going to a 22.lr I would go with the exchange kit from Sig Sauer.
Thank you!
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #23
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No problem hope this information helps you.

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Old 01-31-2013, 08:47 PM   #24
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But I'm long winded?
It's OK to be a DA Sig Sycophant, but come on. How about you get yours converted to DAO, since you love DA so much?
Longwinded? One good turn deserves another, right? I learn from the best maybe? Now, let me show you how it's done!

I don't choose DAO because I do like the crispness of the single-action trigger *AFTER* the initial heavier double-action trigger pull. It's a safety feature.

When lead starts flying one's way, it's completely normal for people to become all pumped up on adrenaline and nerves and develop tunnel-vision, as the body shifts into the "fight or flight" response.

When in that state, it is not at all difficult to lose awareness of one's trigger finger, and the pressure being applied to the trigger, resulting in ND's.

Yes, the finger should not even be on the trigger many times when ND's occur, but until one has experienced the 'altered state' I'm trying to describe, one of falling back on training and reflexes because the brain has shut down or been caught off gaurd by reason of somebody else's attempt at "shock & awe", how easy it is to goof up, then understanding it from a theory-only perspective is quite limiting. Until you've been there, you haven't been there. And if one isn't training for such a situation, they don't want to be there.

Also, it's easy to degrade somebody as being a "top punk" because they have dreadlocks and make rash statements, and then have a ND. What about the Youtube video of the female officer that had a ND and almost shot the cuffed suspect in the head who was lying face-down in front of her? The fact of the matter is that these people were trained, at least to some extent.

How many people do you know that carry handguns and have had no training at all? It's sheer arrogance, a dangerous arrogance to quietly confide in oneself "oh, that would never hapen to me!" Myself included.

It the two mishaps by LEO's portrayed above, both occurred with cocked firearms and a single-action trigger pull. Both could have been prevented by an uncocked handgun with a stiffer double-action trigger pull. (for the first shot)

Exactly how much time is saved by arming the firing mechanism "ahead of time" opposed to just arming it when indexing the first shot with the trigger squeeze? Maybe .002 seconds? What would seem more natural in a life and death encounter with shaky nervous hands?: Flipping a safety lever or squeezing the trigger? One single action with a double-action first shot is more efficient than the two stage operation of a 1911. It's more of that simple math. 1 is less than 2. Carrying around a pre-armed weapon with a safety is more of a liability than an asset, in my opinion.

Also, I would bet money that most 1911 users actually have their finger on the trigger at some point during the draw and relying on their safety lever to do what should be done by their brain and finger: keeping their finger off the trigger until time of fire. Bad habits in training equals bad habits in a real situation. And bad habits in the real deal can equate to death in a hurry.

If you combine all of the above aspects, the chances of an ND are greater with a 1911 than with a standard Sig or any DA-first-shot handgun, despite what 1911 users say in their state of denial.

It's not like I'm a 1911 hater/basher. I had an absolutely beautiful Sig 1911 C3 that I adored. But I had to let it go because I seen it as an accident waiting to happen. Your view may be different.

At any rate, there must be a little something to having a double-action first shot because many law enforcement agencies across the USA are switching to DAO handguns.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:34 PM   #25
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Sure DA/SA's offer something...they offer the need to change your shooting grip after you miss the first shot due to that long heavy trigger pull!

Police departments love them because their gauging "liability" over shootability... and your right, poorly trained people who stand around with there finger on the trigger are less likely to ND a DA pull.

Both the LEO instances talked about above involved Glocks which only put their firing springs under "I believe" 60% compression, requiring the shooter to take up the remaining 40% of tension by pulling the trigger which, though they are striker fired, makes their trigger pull much closer to your vaunted DA trigger than a 1911 SA trigger.

Look, carry whichever system your comfortable with, but do not state that a 1911's trigger is any less safe that a DA/SA trigger and then try to back it up with an example of stating that most people are poorly trained and thus better suited to a less effective tool.

Given my experience with both of these pistols, it's been my reality that the light SA 1911 trigger is the reason I'm so aware of keeping my trigger finger indexed where it should be...on the frame...until I make the decision to fire.

ND's "into suspects" are the result of poorly trained officers thinking that because they can index their trigger "effectively" on the range, they can do the same thing under stress.

Yes, I've experienced the adrenaline dump and it's a good god damn thing I was indexed on the frame because my trigger finger was sore, after settling down, due to how hard I was pushing it into that frame.

Your also correct that it takes about .002 to go from the frame to the trigger...so...if you know enough to keep your finger where it belongs, and your gun has a clean crisp 1 ST shot trigger...then there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to be on the trigger unless you've made the decision to fire.

So... If we accept that being "on the trigger" before you've made the decision to shoot is foolish, and we train to always index the trigger finger, then why on earth would we need to handicap ourselves with a long and heavy first shot DA? Why would we further handicap ourselves with a DA/SA than not only hurts our ability to score a hit with our first shot, but also requires us to change our grip because the trigger has now "staged" itself and dropped back a considerable distance?

The only reasonable answer to this question IS that some folks are simply not comfortable carrying a pistol with the hammer cocked as it's designer intended...and that's ok...I'm not second guessing anyones comfort zone...but hey, I do enjoy a good argument...

Tack



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazzmodicus View Post
Longwinded? One good turn deserves another, right? I learn from the best maybe? Now, let me show you how it's done!

I don't choose DAO because I do like the crispness of the single-action trigger *AFTER* the initial heavier double-action trigger pull. It's a safety feature.

When lead starts flying one's way, it's completely normal for people to become all pumped up on adrenaline and nerves and develop tunnel-vision, as the body shifts into the "fight or flight" response.

When in that state, it is not at all difficult to lose awareness of one's trigger finger, and the pressure being applied to the trigger, resulting in ND's.

Yes, the finger should not even be on the trigger many times when ND's occur, but until one has experienced the 'altered state' I'm trying to describe, one of falling back on training and reflexes because the brain has shut down or been caught off gaurd by reason of somebody else's attempt at "shock & awe", how easy it is to goof up, then understanding it from a theory-only perspective is quite limiting. Until you've been there, you haven't been there. And if one isn't training for such a situation, they don't want to be there.

Also, it's easy to degrade somebody as being a "top punk" because they have dreadlocks and make rash statements, and then have a ND. What about the Youtube video of the female officer that had a ND and almost shot the cuffed suspect in the head who was lying face-down in front of her? The fact of the matter is that these people were trained, at least to some extent.

How many people do you know that carry handguns and have had no training at all? It's sheer arrogance, a dangerous arrogance to quietly confide in oneself "oh, that would never hapen to me!" Myself included.

It the two mishaps by LEO's portrayed above, both occurred with cocked firearms and a single-action trigger pull. Both could have been prevented by an uncocked handgun with a stiffer double-action trigger pull. (for the first shot)

Exactly how much time is saved by arming the firing mechanism "ahead of time" opposed to just arming it when indexing the first shot with the trigger squeeze? Maybe .002 seconds? What would seem more natural in a life and death encounter with shaky nervous hands?: Flipping a safety lever or squeezing the trigger? One single action with a double-action first shot is more efficient than the two stage operation of a 1911. It's more of that simple math. 1 is less than 2. Carrying around a pre-armed weapon with a safety is more of a liability than an asset, in my opinion.

Also, I would bet money that most 1911 users actually have their finger on the trigger at some point during the draw and relying on their safety lever to do what should be done by their brain and finger: keeping their finger off the trigger until time of fire. Bad habits in training equals bad habits in a real situation. And bad habits in the real deal can equate to death in a hurry.

If you combine all of the above aspects, the chances of an ND are greater with a 1911 than with a standard Sig or any DA-first-shot handgun, despite what 1911 users say in their state of denial.

It's not like I'm a 1911 hater/basher. I had an absolutely beautiful Sig 1911 C3 that I adored. But I had to let it go because I seen it as an accident waiting to happen. Your view may be different.

At any rate, there must be a little something to having a double-action first shot because many law enforcement agencies across the USA are switching to DAO handguns.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:05 PM   #26
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Sure DA/SA's offer something...they offer the need to change your shooting grip after you miss the first shot due to that long heavy trigger pull!
Hahaha! Nah, it's a matter of training. It becomes quite easy to hit the mark with the first shot with practice.

One of the unique features of a standard Sig is the ability to simply hit the decocking lever in between shots if for example, somebody wants to practice a bunch of double-action trigger pulls, mostly because they can't hit the broad side of a barn with their first shot due to only ever using 1911's. Hahaha.

How do you safely decock a 1911 anyway? Pinch the hammer as you pull the trigger and hope like hell you don't accidentally lose your grip on said squirrelly hammer? There's a contradiction right there: "FINGER ON THE TRIGGER, NOT READY TO FIRE"

Other than that Tack, great answers and well said. I refuse to argue with somebody that sounds like they know what they're talking about. I have to take as many shots as I give out. Not as much fun as just slapping around on the ignorant. Hahaha.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:06 AM   #27
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Spazz

I'm quite familiar with the 226. My 226 .40 is my bedside pistol because it's a great gun, reliable all day long, offers higher capacity than my 1911's, and has that nifty rail for my mounted light...which I believe is absolutely necessary on any HD gun...Also, because of my security system and my very loud dog...it's highly unlikely I would not have time to cock the hammer before confronting a threat inside my house.

With all that said, I do firmly believe there is a tremendous advantage on any CCW firearm to have a "consistent" trigger pull "every time". Trigger weight can be trained for so whether you select an SA Only or a DA Only is irrelevant...I just personally would not CCW a DA/SA because it does require me to shift my grip between the first DA shot and the follow on SA shots.

How do I safely de-cock my 1911's? Simple...I don't...if there on me, there locked and cocked. If there going in the safe for a spell, there unloaded, pointed into my clearing barrel, and the trigger is pulled allowing the hammer to fall. If it's good enough for Military Arms Rooms, it's good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by Spazzmodicus View Post
Hahaha! Nah, it's a matter of training. It becomes quite easy to hit the mark with the first shot with practice.

One of the unique features of a standard Sig is the ability to simply hit the decocking lever in between shots if for example, somebody wants to practice a bunch of double-action trigger pulls, mostly because they can't hit the broad side of a barn with their first shot due to only ever using 1911's. Hahaha.

How do you safely decock a 1911 anyway? Pinch the hammer as you pull the trigger and hope like hell you don't accidentally lose your grip on said squirrelly hammer? There's a contradiction right there: "FINGER ON THE TRIGGER, NOT READY TO FIRE"

Other than that Tack, great answers and well said. I refuse to argue with somebody that sounds like they know what they're talking about. I have to take as many shots as I give out. Not as much fun as just slapping around on the ignorant. Hahaha.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Spazzmodicus

Hahaha! Nah, it's a matter of training. It becomes quite easy to hit the mark with the first shot with practice.

One of the unique features of a standard Sig is the ability to simply hit the decocking lever in between shots if for example, somebody wants to practice a bunch of double-action trigger pulls, mostly because they can't hit the broad side of a barn with their first shot due to only ever using 1911's. Hahaha.

How do you safely decock a 1911 anyway? Pinch the hammer as you pull the trigger and hope like hell you don't accidentally lose your grip on said squirrelly hammer? There's a contradiction right there: "FINGER ON THE TRIGGER, NOT READY TO FIRE"

Other than that Tack, great answers and well said. I refuse to argue with somebody that sounds like they know what they're talking about. I have to take as many shots as I give out. Not as much fun as just slapping around on the ignorant. Hahaha.
How about easing back on the sarcasm a little bit, this is the second thread I have read that has your post in it and your being a jerk in both of them.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Spazzmodicus View Post
Longwinded? One good turn deserves another, right? I learn from the best maybe? Now, let me show you how it's done!

I don't choose DAO because I do like the crispness of the single-action trigger *AFTER* the initial heavier double-action trigger pull. It's a safety feature.

When lead starts flying one's way, it's completely normal for people to become all pumped up on adrenaline and nerves and develop tunnel-vision, as the body shifts into the "fight or flight" response.

When in that state, it is not at all difficult to lose awareness of one's trigger finger, and the pressure being applied to the trigger, resulting in ND's.

Yes, the finger should not even be on the trigger many times when ND's occur, but until one has experienced the 'altered state' I'm trying to describe, one of falling back on training and reflexes because the brain has shut down or been caught off gaurd by reason of somebody else's attempt at "shock & awe", how easy it is to goof up, then understanding it from a theory-only perspective is quite limiting. Until you've been there, you haven't been there. And if one isn't training for such a situation, they don't want to be there.

Also, it's easy to degrade somebody as being a "top punk" because they have dreadlocks and make rash statements, and then have a ND. What about the Youtube video of the female officer that had a ND and almost shot the cuffed suspect in the head who was lying face-down in front of her? The fact of the matter is that these people were trained, at least to some extent.

How many people do you know that carry handguns and have had no training at all? It's sheer arrogance, a dangerous arrogance to quietly confide in oneself "oh, that would never hapen to me!" Myself included.

It the two mishaps by LEO's portrayed above, both occurred with cocked firearms and a single-action trigger pull. Both could have been prevented by an uncocked handgun with a stiffer double-action trigger pull. (for the first shot)

Exactly how much time is saved by arming the firing mechanism "ahead of time" opposed to just arming it when indexing the first shot with the trigger squeeze? Maybe .002 seconds? What would seem more natural in a life and death encounter with shaky nervous hands?: Flipping a safety lever or squeezing the trigger? One single action with a double-action first shot is more efficient than the two stage operation of a 1911. It's more of that simple math. 1 is less than 2. Carrying around a pre-armed weapon with a safety is more of a liability than an asset, in my opinion.

Also, I would bet money that most 1911 users actually have their finger on the trigger at some point during the draw and relying on their safety lever to do what should be done by their brain and finger: keeping their finger off the trigger until time of fire. Bad habits in training equals bad habits in a real situation. And bad habits in the real deal can equate to death in a hurry.

If you combine all of the above aspects, the chances of an ND are greater with a 1911 than with a standard Sig or any DA-first-shot handgun, despite what 1911 users say in their state of denial.

It's not like I'm a 1911 hater/basher. I had an absolutely beautiful Sig 1911 C3 that I adored. But I had to let it go because I seen it as an accident waiting to happen. Your view may be different.

At any rate, there must be a little something to having a double-action first shot because many law enforcement agencies across the USA are switching to DAO handguns.
So...we must all suffer through with terrible trigger because we must protect the lowest common denominators from their inability to keep their finger off of the trigger? I know, lets mandate that all handgun triggers have a 25 lb pull with no less than 2 inches of travel. Because that would have to be safer right?
Logic like that brought us the "New York Trigger." Yep, real safe... unless you happen to have been a bystander at that recent NYPD shootout.
Just about the time you think you built something idiot proof, nature, in it's infinite wisdom, provides a better idiot. Trigger time/training are a better solution than engineering to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, it's not the cheapest or the easiest solution.
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:21 PM   #30
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So...we must all suffer through with terrible trigger because we must protect the lowest common denominators from their inability to keep their finger off of the trigger? I know, lets mandate that all handgun triggers have a 25 lb pull with no less than 2 inches of travel. Because that would have to be safer right?
Logic like that brought us the "New York Trigger." Yep, real safe... unless you happen to have been a bystander at that recent NYPD shootout.
Just about the time you think you built something idiot proof, nature, in it's infinite wisdom, provides a better idiot. Trigger time/training are a better solution than engineering to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, it's not the cheapest or the easiest solution.
LMAO... So true, no matter what considerations you do to idiot proof something the idiot line just keeps moving
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