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Old 01-29-2013, 05:59 PM   #11
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I'm a 357sig fan and owner, a 1911 fan and owner, and the previous owner of a P226 in 357sig. So I might be able to offer something here.

357sig- Great caliber, but expensive and sometimes difficult to acquire. Sort of the 25-06rem of pistol rounds in that way. Excellent energy and a very flat shooting medium caliber round. But if your budget pushes your "wants" aside with regularity, there are much better caliber choices in my opinion. Light and hot 40sw and stouter loaded 124-135gr 9mm defense rounds can be ballistically similar to 357sig...except that the range fuel will be far more affordable than will be the case with 357sig.

1911- Is a great option, and I would choose it in 45acp. Bigger bullet, faster follow-up shots than 357sig (which handles much like a muzzle-flipping snappy 40sw, rather than the 45acp's 'push back'), and 45 is actually about 20% more affordable for range ammo.

Sig P226- Great platform. Probably among the 5 best currently produced handguns in my opinion. But they're expensive and I don't shoot them particularly well. This is why I sold my .357 P226. I have zero complaints about the gun's performance. Only my own fit, as well as the ammo costs.

My advice is that you investigate (the costs) and experiment with (the shootability of) the guns in question. 1911 in 45acp is great option for most folks. A Sig P226 can be great for many folks. A 357sig can work well for some folks. 9mm, 357sig, 40sw, and 45acp all can and will get the job done. It's really just a matter how the round/platform in question meets your particular needs, budget, etc.

Everyone has their own tastes. If Springfield ever offered their XDm 5.25" in 357sig or 10mm, that might well be my range/HD handgun of choice. It wouldn't be a ideal for a lot of people, but it'd sure put a smile on my face.

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Old 01-29-2013, 06:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by tampamiketaylor View Post
Hey guys

I'd like your input on a p226 or 1911 nightmare in 357sig cal. Not really looking for a concealed gun and primarily accuracy and reliability. Let me know what you think

Mike

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I say .. What the hell.. gett'em both...
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:53 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1
Several operations groups still use 1911's and some also use the 226.

I've owned and carried both platforms. They are both good platforms. There is nothing about a 1911 that makes it any more or less inherently safe than a 226.

I would suggest you shoot them both if possible. While the 226 is a good gun, NOTHING on planet earth shoots like a quality 1911. It is the finest SA trigger available on a factory gun and it's handling characteristics are second to none.

Good Luck and be safe.

Tack
Thanks tackleberry!

I've shot a p226 and loved it but never a sig 1911. I will head over to the range this weekend and see if they have one.

Mike
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:58 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by sweeper22
I'm a 357sig fan and owner, a 1911 fan and owner, and the previous owner of a P226 in 357sig. So I might be able to offer something here.

357sig- Great caliber, but expensive and sometimes difficult to acquire. Sort of the 25-06rem of pistol rounds in that way. Excellent energy and a very flat shooting medium caliber round. But if your budget pushes your "wants" aside with regularity, there are much better caliber choices in my opinion. Light and hot 40sw and stouter loaded 124-135gr 9mm defense rounds can be ballistically similar to 357sig...except that the range fuel will be far more affordable than will be the case with 357sig.

1911- Is a great option, and I would choose it in 45acp. Bigger bullet, faster follow-up shots than 357sig (which handles much like a muzzle-flipping snappy 40sw, rather than the 45acp's 'push back'), and 45 is actually about 20% more affordable for range ammo.

Sig P226- Great platform. Probably among the 5 best currently produced handguns in my opinion. But they're expensive and I don't shoot them particularly well. This is why I sold my .357 P226. I have zero complaints about the gun's performance. Only my own fit, as well as the ammo costs.

My advice is that you investigate (the costs) and experiment with (the shootability of) the guns in question. 1911 in 45acp is great option for most folks. A Sig P226 can be great for many folks. A 357sig can work well for some folks. 9mm, 357sig, 40sw, and 45acp all can and will get the job done. It's really just a matter how the round/platform in question meets your particular needs, budget, etc.

Everyone has their own tastes. If Springfield ever offered their XDm 5.25" in 357sig or 10mm, that might well be my range/HD handgun of choice. It wouldn't be a ideal for a lot of people, but it'd sure put a smile on my face.
Thanks sweeper22!

Excellent feedback and insight into your experience! I will test fire them both but the sig 226 does seem more flexible with just getting a conversion kit for 40, 9, and I think 22 cal. Need to see if that is avail on 1911 but I do not think so.

Thx,
Mike
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:15 AM   #15
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The reason there are more NGs with 1911s? Because there has to be 20 times the number of 1911s in the world as opposed to Sig 226s.
Um....thanks for the unnecessary and really long'-winded math lesson but it's not like the Sig 226 is a spring chicken, in that it's design hasn't changed much since it's inception in the late 30's, one whose origins were also from the pencil of John Moses Browning.

Security agencies around the world have chosen Sigs (all with the same basic design) in far greater numbers than they have chosen the 1911. Look at law enforcement in the USA alone. Most law enforcement were carrying revolvers until the 70's or 80's, not 1911's. Many states switched to Sigs when re-equiping with semiauto handguns. Some states still use Sigs today, not 1911's. So I'm not sure exactly where you're getting your numeric data from. There has been plenty of opportunity to hear about negligent discharges from Sigs over the last 30 years. Where's all the reports?

Like it or not, a potentially unsafe condition is inherent in the design of 1911 or any firearm in which the user carries it around "cocked". The safety lever works fine as a safety lever but it also can lead the user into a false sense of security with somebody thinking their gun is safe and not realizing the moment said safety lever is switched to the fire position by accident.

And To say that all negligent discharges occur by untrained people is kinda' brash and arrogant. Look at the well known Youtube video of the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot when holstering his Glock in a classroom. Are you going to say he wasn't well trained?

Moments of indiscretion and misplaced attention can and does happen to anybody regardless of level of training. It's part of the human condition. For that reason alone it makes sense to not have a firing mechanism cocked until 'time of use'.

"But I won't have time to rack the slide in the occurrence of an actual event if I don't carry the gun cocked". No sh1t?! That's one of the marvels of the double-action system.

At any rate, a certain amount of elevated attention and focus is required to pull the hammer back and arm a firearm, or simply squeeze the trigger harder on the first shot, on a Sig. 0% of that attention and focus is required to accidentally bump the safety into fire position on a cocked and locked 1911. You do the math there, since you like math so much.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:45 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tampamiketaylor View Post

Thanks sweeper22!

Excellent feedback and insight into your experience! I will test fire them both but the sig 226 does seem more flexible with just getting a conversion kit for 40, 9, and I think 22 cal. Need to see if that is avail on 1911 but I do not think so.

Thx,
Mike
I recently picked up a Sig 226 .22lr, complete with a beavertail. Not talking about the Mosquito here. I removed the slide from it and put on the slide from my 9mm Sig 226. Fired like butter. No problems at all.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:46 AM   #17
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Spaz

Every manufacturer who's produced non SA Only pistols has come up with a slick marketing campaign aimed at maligning the "inherent safety" of the 1911 platform. They do this because despite it's century old designs it's still the "prefered" platform for experienced shooters.

I've personally owned and extensively fired an example of every trigger/action design on the market so I know the reason for the 1911's longevity is it's EXCELLENT trigger characteristics. Characteristics that simply can not be duplicated in a DA/SA, DA Only, or Striker platform.

The first 13 of my 17 years of daily CCW was with a 1911, first a 5" Colt then later a 4" Kimber without a single ND.

You are correct about ND's occurring with experienced shooters due to momentary lapses however there is a difference between an ND into a clearing barrel and an ND into your foot in classroom full of children.

An LEO Badge does not equate to a well trained individual and it does not matter how smoking cool his Dred Locks look... That agent was a punk of the highest order and he proved it with his comment about being the only one "professional enough to handle this weapon." BAM!

Every gun requires the same basic principles of:
Finger indexed on frame until sights are on target and...
Muzzle Control

Our now Famous Amous of the DEA broke them both and is immortalized in Internet lore as the biggest Ass Hat to EVER wear a badge.
I'm pretty sure his ND was with a GLOCK .40 but with a clown like that it could have been any gun with the same result.

Tack

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Originally Posted by Spazzmodicus View Post
Um....thanks for the unnecessary and really long'-winded math lesson but it's not like the Sig 226 is a spring chicken, in that it's design hasn't changed much since it's inception in the late 30's, one whose origins were also from the pencil of John Moses Browning.

Security agencies around the world have chosen Sigs (all with the same basic design) in far greater numbers than they have chosen the 1911. Look at law enforcement in the USA alone. Most law enforcement were carrying revolvers until the 70's or 80's, not 1911's.

Like it or not, a potentially unsafe condition is inherent in the design of 1911 or any firearm in which the user carries it around "cocked". The safety lever works fine as a safety lever but it also can lead the user into a false sense of security with somebody thinking their gun is safe and not realizing the moment said safety lever is switched to the fire position by accident.

And To say that all negligent discharges occur by untrained people is kinda' brash and arrogant. Look at the well known Youtube video of the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot when holstering his Glock in a classroom. Are you going to say he wasn't well trained?

Moments of indiscretion and misplaced attention can and does happen to anybody regardless of level of training. It's part of the human condition. For that reason alone it makes sense to not have a firing mechanism cocked until 'time of use'.

A certain amount of elevated attention and focus is required to pull the hammer back and arm a firearm. 0% of that attention and focus is required to accidentally bump the safety into fire position. You do the math there, since you like math so much.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:59 PM   #18
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Um....thanks for the unnecessary and really long'-winded math lesson but it's not like the Sig 226 is a spring chicken, in that it's design hasn't changed much since it's inception in the late 30's, one whose origins were also from the pencil of John Moses Browning.
100 years, still in service. Get back to me when Sig DAs hit that mark.
Security agencies around the world have chosen Sigs (all with the same basic design) in far greater numbers than they have chosen the 1911. Look at law enforcement in the USA alone. Most law enforcement were carrying revolvers until the 70's or 80's, not 1911's. Many states switched to Sigs when re-equiping with semiauto handguns. Some states still use Sigs today, not 1911's. So I'm not sure exactly where you're getting your numeric data from. Did you even read my post? My "data" was presented as a "for instance" example. My point was that in sheer quantity of manufacturing through multiple wars and the civilian market, the quantity of 1911s produced has to dwarf the number of Sig 226s (and their brethren) produced over the last 100 years.
Thousands of LE agencies carry Glocks too. The US Military has a buttload of Berettas as well. CZ has a decent market share outside the US too. FWIW, using Govt purchasing habits doesn't really prove much, other than they hit a good price point and had the required features to win the contract. The govt never buys crap ever, right?
There has been plenty of opportunity to hear about negligent discharges from Sigs over the last 30 years. Where's all the reports?
Like it or not, a potentially unsafe condition is inherent in the design of 1911 or any firearm in which the user carries it around "cocked". The safety lever works fine as a safety lever but it also can lead the user into a false sense of security with somebody thinking their gun is safe and not realizing the moment said safety lever is switched to the fire position by accident. Apparently the 1911 grip safety doesn't exist in your world?

And To say that all negligent discharges occur by untrained people is kinda' brash and arrogant.
The term "negligent" means what exactly? Careless? Untrained? Ignorant? Stupid? Inattentive? Tired? Drunk? You pick. It's all negligence.
Brash? Maybe. Arrogant? No. Try accurate. Simply put, if you have a negligent discharge with a serviceable firearm, you did something wrong. Everything else is noise and excuses.
Look at the well known Youtube video of the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot when holstering his Glock in a classroom. Are you going to say he wasn't well trained?
No. I'm saying he was negligent, as well as arrogant. The greatest training in the world is meaningless if not followed. I can't speak to the actual quality of his training, I do wonder though. It also makes me question the quality of DEA personnel screening. He was an arrogant douche and he paid for it.
He forgot the 4 rules. That was instant karma if there ever was any. Last I heard he was suing because of that video making him a laughingstock.
Moments of indiscretion and misplaced attention can and does happen to anybody regardless of level of training. It's part of the human condition. For that reason alone it makes sense to not have a firing mechanism cocked until 'time of use'. Trained LE personnel should know to keep their damned finger off of the trigger. How hard is that?
"But I won't have time to rack the slide in the occurrence of an actual event if I don't carry the gun cocked". No sh1t?! That's one of the marvels of the double-action system. It is truly wonderful.
At any rate, a certain amount of elevated attention and focus is required to pull the hammer back and arm a firearm, or simply squeeze the trigger harder on the first shot, on a Sig. 0% of that attention and focus is required to accidentally (huh?) bump the safety into fire position on a cocked and locked 1911. So it's a question of complexity? You do the math there, since you like math so much.
But I'm long winded?
It's OK to be a DA Sig Sycophant, but come on. How about you get yours converted to DAO, since you love DA so much?
The 1911 is not inherently unsafe. It's just not as idiot proof as you'd like. Just because "Cocked & Locked" offends your sensibilities doesn't really change mine or many others opinions. I will continue to carry my 1911 in the manner in which it was designed. If you think it's unsafe or overly complex, so be it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:23 PM   #19
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But I'm long winded?
It's OK to be a DA Sig Sycophant, but come on. How about you get yours converted to DAO, since you love DA so much?
The 1911 is not inherently unsafe. It's just not as idiot proof as you'd like. Just because "Cocked & Locked" offends your sensibilities doesn't really change mine or many others opinions. I will continue to carry my 1911 in the manner in which it was designed. If you think it's unsafe or overly complex, so be it.
Hey guys,

I really appreciate your productive responses on this topic. This kind of debate may seem aggressive by some but it is a sure way to uncover different POV’s and highlight some excellent points. These points really help gather the facts needed to form a decision. Seems that both the Sig 1911 and the p226 are still excellent candidates to look at. I will shoot them both and try to make the decision. Does anyone know if Sig offers conversion kits for the 1911 nightmare platform to other cals such as 9 and 40?

Thanks again!
Mike
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:27 PM   #20
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Hey guys,

I really appreciate your productive responses on this topic. This kind of debate may seem aggressive by some but it is a sure way to uncover different POV’s and highlight some excellent points. These points really help gather the facts needed to form a decision. Seems that both the Sig 1911 and the p226 are still excellent candidates to look at. I will shoot them both and try to make the decision. Does anyone know if Sig offers conversion kits for the 1911 nightmare platform to other cals such as 9 and 40?

Thanks again!
Mike
There are nightmare models in just about every format sig makes based off the 1911 platform. The 938 and 238 have em at least. I carry two nightmare 1911s and both are great weapons. I say shoot any and all you can and go from there.
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