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Old 10-20-2012, 02:16 AM   #61
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You do know that a standard, pushbutton Simplex lock can be opened in less than 20 seconds using a rare earth magnet?
No, how?

I do not recall saying that what I'm proposing would be as secure as a purpose-built secure room, with a vault door, ect. What I have right now is a stack-on gun cabinet. Not secure at all, but better than leaving guns lying around. What I'm proposing is maybe a step or 2 above that, adding fire resistance, and it could be hidden to boot. If you add layers of wood, construction adhesive, screws, maybe metal, I bet you'd be surprised at how difficult it would be to disassemble it even with sledgehammers, saws, or other tools.

How much would your system be, on average? Vault door, engineering, room construction? How much is that vault door alone? $2,500+, I believe. I'd be trying to hit around $300 or so, with someone adding their own time, and another $2-300 in materials, depending on what they wanted.
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Old 10-20-2012, 02:30 AM   #62
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Unless a lock picking expert breaks in the house they will have to tear the closet down
Go to YouTube and search "bump key." Nobody picks locks anymore - that actually takes practice. If you have a key that will fit into the cylinder you take a small bump-key mallet and tap the back of the key (called "bumping"). That jiggles the pins upward and the lock opens. You can get bump key sets with premade bump keys for most commercial locks.

The fast way past a locked door is to spread the door frame. A Porta Power tool does that in less than a minute. A 20-ton Porta Power makes quick work of most any door jambs - including steel jambs. One countermeasure is to use a steel door frame and grout the jambs.

But - you really have to ask - how many people doing an in-and-out robbery are going to carry a Porta Power - much like the already mentioned concrete saw. Most home robberies are whatever is available in the shortest time possible. So it's usually electronics and jewelry if it's easy to find. if your guns are in a high quality residential security container - they won't take it the first time. However, if they find the gun safe and it looks like it can be compromised easily or gotten out of the house rapidly - they may come back.
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Old 10-20-2012, 02:46 AM   #63
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No, how?
Sorry, can't tell you how that's done - I do security work professionally and will not put that kind of information on the Internet.

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I bet you'd be surprised at how difficult it would be to disassemble it even with sledgehammers, saws, or other tools.
I doubt I'd be surprised at all. I get paid to figure out how to get into areas and past security - and then develop the countermeasures. There's nothing you can build that hasn't been tested by one of the national laboratories for the Department of Energy. Every type of wall construction has been built and tested. From wallboard up to various thicknesses of block, brick, and concrete walls. This includes plywood reinforced framed construction, glued, screwed, nailed, power nailed, special fasteners, etc.

I've been in countless meetings going over the tools used, times, and counter measures planning sessions to slow down the penetration into the room.

As is often said - "Been there, done that, own the T-shirt."
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Old 10-20-2012, 02:55 AM   #64
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I believe. I'd be trying to hit around $300 or so, with someone adding their own time, and another $2-300 in materials, depending on what they wanted.
Then you'd better price commercial ball bearing hinges for the weight, a steel frame for the weight, jamb reinforcements, and a commercial lockset - preferably a Medeco or Schlage Primus series. You're already way past your budget just with that hardware set.

Anything less than that is, frankly, useless in my estimation. However, what I've learned in 28 years of doing this kind of work for the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines, DOE, DoD, NNSA, IRS, and about 35 international airports - everyone with a house key is a security expert and knows more about it than I do.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:01 PM   #65
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Then you'd better price commercial ball bearing hinges for the weight, a steel frame for the weight, jamb reinforcements, and a commercial lockset - preferably a Medeco or Schlage Primus series. You're already way past your budget just with that hardware set.

Anything less than that is, frankly, useless in my estimation. However, what I've learned in 28 years of doing this kind of work for the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines, DOE, DoD, NNSA, IRS, and about 35 international airports - everyone with a house key is a security expert and knows more about it than I do.
You are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT! I don't CARE WHO you've worked for. Most of us here don't have the money like the Army, DOE, IRS, or even 1 airport. We also don't need that kind of security. We are maybe trying to defend against a crack-head break in, or other semi-casual break in, not a Mission Impossible break in. By your reasoning, since I don't have 100 Million to spend on paying you to sit there and tell me to spend 100 million, and then to go build it, I should just bring my guns down to the road, and lean them against the phone pole, and store them there.

BTW, what do you think of my Stack-On sheetmetal gun cabinet? Cool, huh?
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Old 10-21-2012, 04:13 AM   #66
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i don't like stack on's

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Old 10-21-2012, 11:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by clr8ter View Post
You are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT! I don't CARE WHO you've worked for. Most of us here don't have the money like the Army, DOE, IRS, or even 1 airport. We also don't need that kind of security. We are maybe trying to defend against a crack-head break in, or other semi-casual break in, not a Mission Impossible break in. By your reasoning, since I don't have 100 Million to spend on paying you to sit there and tell me to spend 100 million, and then to go build it, I should just bring my guns down to the road, and lean them against the phone pole, and store them there.

BTW, what do you think of my Stack-On sheetmetal gun cabinet? Cool, huh?
No - I'm not missing the point at all. You want to do something as cheaply as possible - and then pretend you've upgraded the security. You're upset because I won't buy into your "security upgrade."

Nobody said you need millions to do security. That's something you've decided on your own, as I've never said that - and, on top of that, you've decided to make this personal and be insulting.

The fact is I get paid to do security and have done it for people that understand and want real security - not fake security. Some of the best security upgrades cost very little - unfortunately, your attempt at security isn't one them

All I said is get the proper hinges, a good door frame, reinforce the jambs, and use a quality lock - and that will be beyond your $300 budget - and you're pissed off. I will say it one more time as YOU don't seem to want to understand that if you don't take very basic steps - you haven't made a security upgrade.

Tell you what - save yourself some money and a whole lot of time. Go to a door shop and buy a commercial, solid-core, steel door and steel door frame. Make a wooden wall frame rough-in and double up the 2x4's (4 on each side) with an engineered wood header to hold the steel door frame. Glue and screw the wooden frame together. At that point you can beef it up further by putting a brace from the door frame diagonally to the sill plate or to adajacent wall studs - whatever you want to do.

If you wanted to make it even stronger, used engineered 4x material in place of standard 2x4's - whatever fits into your budget.

Put the steel door frame in place and mark the area for the bolt mortise on the wooden frame.

Make a 1/8-inch thick x 1.5 inch wide x 8-inch long bolt mortise reinforcement. Bore a hole in it for the lock bolt, Put at least 4 screws in it including the holes for the lock mortise plate that will be on top of the steel frame. Recess the reinforcement into the frame rough-in so it's flush with the surface of the wood framing.

Put your steel frame in place, figure out where it needs to be shimmed to make it plumb and level. Before it's put into place, take some low expansion spray foam and fill the steel door frame - put it in place and use 3-1/2 inch screws and screw the door frame into the double framing.

Use a quality lock, either a Medeco or Schlage Primus with a 1-1/2 inch bolt for the lockset. You will now have a door that will be diffiult to get through - or even spread the frame easily using a Porta-Power.

You want to confect a self-engineered "security upgrade" and pretend that you're doing something outside of what can be done with commercially availible materials - fine by me - as I've said, everyone with a house key knows more about this than I do.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:15 AM   #68
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BTW, what do you think of my Stack-On sheetmetal gun cabinet? Cool, huh?
Super cool...feel better now? Stack-ons are what they are - metal storage cabinets that will stop children and unsophisticated thieves. They're fairly easy to open and if you understand that you won't be disappointed if your guns get stolen.

20 Years ago, I had a sheet metal security gun container because I had no where to put a safe. It was bolted to a floor joist and the wall studs. I reinforced the interior with 7 gage metal plates in strategic places, add some 1/2-inch x 2-inch steel braces on the outside thru bolted to the interior plates, and locked with a Master Padlock "hockey puck" lock with the hidden schackle and the matching security lock surround.

Certainly not equal to a gun safe - but much better than the standard metal cabinet. At that time the upgrades cost me about $60. My guess today - probably $110.

That's not the least expensive security upgrade. The least expensive is a Master Hockey Puck lock with the security plate welded in place on the front gate to my driveway.

The most expensive security upgrade is one that I've worked on for 9 years where class 3 nuclear material is stored. The security upgrade is for a 4700 foot perimeter and cost $247 million dollars.

One of the cheapest security upgrades was for chemical weapons storage sites and consisted of 20 ton concrete blocks in front of the storage bunker doors.

Security upgrade costs are relative to the cost / loss of the asset, and complexity of the security threat.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by orangello

You should probably kep that saw in its own gunsafe-type container...or at least don't keep it near your gunsafe.
How about this idea...
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by clr8ter

Are we getting CABINET and SAFE confused here? To me a safe has a thick multi layer door and body, seams are completely welded, (NOT spot welded), has several 1" +- locking lugs, a multi mechanism lock, and weighs 100+ pounds, (depending on the size). Fireproofing is a plus. A cabinet is spot welded (usually) sweet metal, single thickness, simple keyed lock, no bolts, not fire proof, and weighs 100- pounds.

Several weeks ago I had to break into my own safe. It was a Sentry firesafe, one of those 2 cu' ones, not a unsafe. It took me 7 min with a medium sized hammer and a flatbar. It was not bolted to the floor. I more recently bought a Stack-on gun cabinet. I guarantee you, I could reduce that 7 min on the Sentry, if it was bolted to the floor, and if the Stack-on cabinet was bolted, I'd give it about 1 min. Unbolted, a little more. I say this because if it was/had been bolted down, that would increase your leverage.

2012-10-29-08.04.58-hidden-room.jpg

How about this idea?
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