Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Gear & Accessories > Gun Safes > gun safe options or styles

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2012, 07:50 PM   #51
Deader Bears=Better Bears
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
orangello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: BFE,Mississippi
Posts: 19,080
Liked 5635 Times on 3313 Posts
Likes Given: 4718

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Crow View Post
When you think about it objectively any safe can be broken into in around 30 minutes. I have a concrete saw that will cut a car in half in less than 30 minutes. All you can do is take reasonable precautions. The concrete saw will just eat up a so called unbreakable padlock in less than 5 minutes.
You should probably kep that saw in its own gunsafe-type container...or at least don't keep it near your gunsafe.
__________________

Dead Bears, the only good kind.
GANDER MOUNTAIN OF HATTIESBURG, MS IS OVERPRICED, HAS LOUSY CUSTOMER SERVICE, & SELLS BEAT UP PISTOLS TO LITTLE OLD LADIES AS "NEW". :p

orangello is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 11:02 PM   #52
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
clr8ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: South Central NH
Posts: 2,571
Liked 640 Times on 431 Posts
Likes Given: 388

Default

Quote:
Tractor Supply has Sentinel safes. They have a 3 pin locking system to prevent a burglar from prying it open in 5 minutes. They are worth the extra money when compared to a stack on. I recently bought a 12 gun Sentinel for $175 out the door.
Are we getting CABINET and SAFE confused here? To me a safe has a thick multi layer door and body, seams are completely welded, (NOT spot welded), has several 1" +- locking lugs, a multi mechanism lock, and weighs 100+ pounds, (depending on the size). Fireproofing is a plus. A cabinet is spot welded (usually) sweet metal, single thickness, simple keyed lock, no bolts, not fire proof, and weighs 100- pounds.

Several weeks ago I had to break into my own safe. It was a Sentry firesafe, one of those 2 cu' ones, not a unsafe. It took me 7 min with a medium sized hammer and a flatbar. It was not bolted to the floor. I more recently bought a Stack-on gun cabinet. I guarantee you, I could reduce that 7 min on the Sentry, if it was bolted to the floor, and if the Stack-on cabinet was bolted, I'd give it about 1 min. Unbolted, a little more. I say this because if it was/had been bolted down, that would increase your leverage.
__________________
clr8ter is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 11:20 PM   #53
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
clr8ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: South Central NH
Posts: 2,571
Liked 640 Times on 431 Posts
Likes Given: 388

Default

Having said all that, anybody here think there would be a market for the following item, which I have not seen on the market in my extensive online search for a reasonably priced unsafe?

A secure door and frame, built out of 3/16", (.187) cold rolled steel. Lock on door to be one of those Simplex locks, (look it up, pretty cool). Door to fit tight in the frame only leaving enough room for door to operate, and to be flush with face of frame, to make prying more difficult. Frame to be 3 1/2" or 5 1/4" deep, to fit either a 2x4 or 2x6 wall. Inside of frame to be drilled to accept 2" GRK Rss Structural screws. (Look them up, you will NOT break this screw, they use them nowadays to lag decks on to houses.)

Here is the interesting thing: while the 2x6 one could be fitted with a back, the bigger point is there would be no back. It would be up to the installer to use this door and frame to create a secure, and possibly hidden/fire resistant storage space. Fire resistant sheetrock can be had locally at low cost, and a clever person could think up a lot of ways to build this and hide it. Some of the security would come from the use of a lot of layers, a lot of framing lumber, and a lot of screws. Again, GRK R4 screws would be ideal. You would be surprised how difficult this type of construction is to disassemble. I used to be in construction, and demo some times is extremely difficult. Ask anyone who has taken up a tile or linoleum floor. And the builders of that floor were not TRYING to make it hard to take apart.....

So the package would include a frame with fitted door and lock, powder coated, and would include the Rss screws to secure it. The rest would be up to the buyer.

Interest?
Price points?

__________________
clr8ter is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 04:07 PM   #54
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Albuquerque,New Mexico
Posts: 162
Liked 25 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clr8ter View Post
Having said all that, anybody here think there would be a market for the following item, which I have not seen on the market in my extensive online search for a reasonably priced unsafe?

A secure door and frame, built out of 3/16", (.187) cold rolled steel. Lock on door to be one of those Simplex locks, (look it up, pretty cool). Door to fit tight in the frame only leaving enough room for door to operate, and to be flush with face of frame, to make prying more difficult. Frame to be 3 1/2" or 5 1/4" deep, to fit either a 2x4 or 2x6 wall. Inside of frame to be drilled to accept 2" GRK Rss Structural screws. (Look them up, you will NOT break this screw, they use them nowadays to lag decks on to houses.)

Here is the interesting thing: while the 2x6 one could be fitted with a back, the bigger point is there would be no back. It would be up to the installer to use this door and frame to create a secure, and possibly hidden/fire resistant storage space. Fire resistant sheetrock can be had locally at low cost, and a clever person could think up a lot of ways to build this and hide it. Some of the security would come from the use of a lot of layers, a lot of framing lumber, and a lot of screws. Again, GRK R4 screws would be ideal. You would be surprised how difficult this type of construction is to disassemble. I used to be in construction, and demo some times is extremely difficult. Ask anyone who has taken up a tile or linoleum floor. And the builders of that floor were not TRYING to make it hard to take apart.....

So the package would include a frame with fitted door and lock, powder coated, and would include the Rss screws to secure it. The rest would be up to the buyer.

Interest?
Price points?

You can buy security doors or a vault door from a number of sources with numerous lock choices.

Here's a link to AMSEC showing their vault door installed in a wall. Firms like Chicago Bullet Proof and Norshield make security doors that are pry resistant and bullet resistant.

So, you'd be in competition with firms that have been manufacturing security doors or vault doors for years - and have product liability insurance....

We design secure rooms that include 9-gage expanded metal both sides of the wall studs - then covered with sheet rock.
__________________
buckhorn_cortez is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 04:23 PM   #55
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Albuquerque,New Mexico
Posts: 162
Liked 25 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
I have a concrete saw that will cut a car in half in less than 30 minutes.
The question is not what you own - but what a hit and run burglar is going to bring with him - and it won't be a concrete saw. Unless a burglar has staked you out and knows exactly what you have (guns / safe) - they're not bringing a whole tool arsenal including a Jancy magnetic drill with Slugger carbide bits.

You can break nearly anything if you have the time and/or equipment. One of the national laboratories conducted studies on how to break through reinforced concrete walls. To get through a 16-inch reinforced wall in one shot only took a shaped charge of 10 pounds of C4 a 3/4-inch steel front plate (to drive through the concrete) and a 3/4-inch steel backing plate (to direct more of the explosion forward).

The question is - how many people can get their hands on 10 pounds of C4 and can carry the two steel plates?

At some point - the threat has to be credible - not just theoretical.
__________________
buckhorn_cortez is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 12:01 AM   #56
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
clr8ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: South Central NH
Posts: 2,571
Liked 640 Times on 431 Posts
Likes Given: 388

Default

Quote:
You can buy security doors or a vault door from a number of sources with numerous lock choices.
Yes, I'm aware of those. But, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking something much lighter, cheaper, smaller, and within anyone's capabilities and budget. Finished space would be more like gun safe size, not room size. Also, not as secure, definitely.
__________________
clr8ter is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 12:51 AM   #57
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Albuquerque,New Mexico
Posts: 162
Liked 25 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clr8ter View Post
Yes, I'm aware of those. But, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking something much lighter, cheaper, smaller, and within anyone's capabilities and budget. Finished space would be more like gun safe size, not room size. Also, not as secure, definitely.
By the time you try and build it correctly, you can buy the Norshield door with an engineered door frame, correct hinges, lock, reinforced bolt mortise, and several UL burglary and bullet resistance ratings. It has to work as entire system of parts - not just a reinforced door.

Then the problem becomes the walls next to the door. Unless the walls are reinforced, the strengthened door does nothing for the security of the space.

Even cement blocks (unless concrete filled) only provide about a 60 second delay. In testing, two guys with 8 lb sledge hammers can go through a cement block wall in about 60 seconds - making multiple layers of wall board a joke, which is why we've gone to the 9-gage expanded metal - the sledges bounce off the expanded metal, and cutting through it is tedious even using a 4-inch grinder with a cutoff wheel, or a battery operated reciprocating saw with a metal cutting blade.

I've worked in physical security for 28 years, and have done everything from high rise office buildings to nuclear facilities and weapons storage areas. In the process, I've been asked to create safe/secure rooms, designed secure data processing areas, arms rooms, and numerous other specialized facilities.

You either do it the right way - or it's not secure. I've seen a 12 year old girl bump key a Medeco lock open. The saving grace to the Medeco lock is that the keys and blanks are restricted, you can't buy them unless you have an account with a Medeco dealer, and you can't get a standard key into the keyway because of the custom rails. So, they're marginally safer than a standard keyed lockset.

You can pursue whatever you want - but what you're proposing isn't security - it's security theater. It just gives the illusion of security, it doesn't provide security.
__________________
buckhorn_cortez is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 01:29 AM   #58
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Albuquerque,New Mexico
Posts: 162
Liked 25 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Lock on door to be one of those Simplex locks, (look it up, pretty cool).
You do know that a standard, pushbutton Simplex lock can be opened in less than 20 seconds using a rare earth magnet?
__________________
buckhorn_cortez is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 11:52 PM   #59
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: \
Posts: 990
Liked 133 Times on 108 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangello View Post
You should probably kep that saw in its own gunsafe-type container...or at least don't keep it near your gunsafe.
I keep the blades in a locked box. The blades have a way of walking off. The same blades fit a lot of cut off/chop saws. Everyone around here seems to have a cut off/chop saw.
__________________

"I do not aim with my hand; I aim with my eye. He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I do not shoot with my hand; I shoot with my mind. He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I do not kill with my gun; I kill with my heart. He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father."

Adopt a pet!! http://www.aspca.org/ Some of the finest pleasure horses come from here: http://www.canterusa.org/

Old_Crow is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 12:09 AM   #60
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: \
Posts: 990
Liked 133 Times on 108 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clr8ter View Post
Yes, I'm aware of those. But, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking something much lighter, cheaper, smaller, and within anyone's capabilities and budget. Finished space would be more like gun safe size, not room size. Also, not as secure, definitely.
If it was cheap to build a safe I would have built one. I can get the material to build one safe at scrap prices. Companies like Liberty that build high quality safes buy locks and fire seal sets by the thousands. I can't buy the same quality locking system at retail as I can buy a complete Liberty safe.

I put the Sentry safe in a small closet. Unless a lock picking expert breaks in the house they will have to tear the closet down to pry the door open. I bolted mine to the floor and to the bottom plate in the wall. I don't think your average smash and grab robber is going to spend that much time in the house.
__________________

"I do not aim with my hand; I aim with my eye. He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I do not shoot with my hand; I shoot with my mind. He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I do not kill with my gun; I kill with my heart. He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father."

Adopt a pet!! http://www.aspca.org/ Some of the finest pleasure horses come from here: http://www.canterusa.org/

Old_Crow is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
XD's!! Slide lightening options and styles! ZombieBrawler XD Forum 11 03-13-2012 12:26 PM
Cannon Safe Safari 5940 Wide Body Firearm Safe - $799.99 shipped @ Costco Slickguns Sponsor Display 1 03-12-2012 02:42 AM
Shooting styles timrz Semi-Auto Handguns 12 09-04-2011 01:54 PM
Sentry Safe G1464C Extra Tall Gun Safe $480.00 Cope's Distributing Sponsor Display 2 02-28-2011 01:24 PM
Different charging styles for an AK Ruzai AK & SKS Discussion 23 09-26-2010 05:33 AM