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Old 03-09-2010, 02:18 PM   #11
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Folks, a carry permit is not a badge and does not make you an LEO. Other than to protect me & mine, my gun is not leaving its holster. Too many folks think that a carry permit grants special powers to the average citizen - it doesn't. Unless you are trained and experienced in jumping into the fray - I'd suggest you mind your own business...
No, a CPL/LTCF/CCW/whatever your state calls it, is not a badge, and you are not under any obligation. But I'll be damned if I just stand by like that scene in Seattle, where the security guards just watched as a girl was beaten and robbed.
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:59 PM   #12
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In AZ they told us you do not have to, and that like many others have stated you are not a LEO. I guess it would depend on the situation, one thing that stuck in my mind from my CCW class is that "BEHIND EVERY BULLET YOU SHOOT IS A LAWYER". So if you step in and hurt or kill someone your at fault no matter what your good intentions were.

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Old 03-09-2010, 06:05 PM   #13
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I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. Laws differ from state to state and city to city. I am a law student in Virginia and mainly study va laws in my spare time as they apply to me. C3 shooter is exactly correct. In Virginia you CANNOT shoot a person unless they have a deadly weopon, and are putting YOU in IMMEDIATE danger. If someone puts a gun to someone elses head and I then shoot them, I could go to jail. It rarely happens and no jury in the world would convict you for it, I'm just stating what the law here states. now if it were me and I thought my life was in danger, I might take the shot. It really depends. As you stated it, if you take the shot, you could be facing criminal charges, being sued by the criminals family, or if you hit a bystander, be sued by their family. Best thing to do is let the police handle it, be a good witness and get a description of the bad guys, height, weight, tattoos, etc. Scenarios like this rarely happen, I'd look up your local and state laws. I tend to err on the side of safety but it's up to you. Carrying a gun is a great responsibility and liberals will look for any reason to infringe on our rights as citizens. Just be careful and shoot safe.

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Old 03-09-2010, 06:21 PM   #14
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Act if you feel you have absolutely no other choice. But it is better to be a good witness than carried by 6. You never know if it is just one on one, or there is an accomplice that you do not know about. You are not a LEO and do not have the training they do. If you feel that your life, or someone else's life, is in danger and you must act then do so, but be ready to accept the potential repercussions. If you shoot and hit someone else, (even if the bullet goes through the bad guy and hits someone else) you may be facing a lengthy court drama. If you do act, be prepared to fully articulate why you felt that you had to take the actions that you did.

Just my $0.02

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Originally posted by Skullcrusher: "I believe the fact that you are LEO speaks for itself. When talking about strong women and guns, you are implied in every statement."

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Old 03-09-2010, 06:33 PM   #15
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Act if you feel you have absolutely no other choice. But it is better to be a good witness than carried by 6. You never know if it is just one on one, or there is an accomplice that you do not know about. You are not a LEO and do not have the training they do. If you feel that your life, or someone else's life, is in danger and you must act then do so, but be ready to accept the potential repercussions. If you shoot and hit someone else, (even if the bullet goes through the bad guy and hits someone else) you may be facing a lengthy court drama. If you do act, be prepared to fully articulate why you felt that you had to take the actions that you did.

Just my $0.02
This post bears noting that is written by a police officer who is also married to another police officer.

There is much wisdom there, so please read it again.

JD
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:13 PM   #16
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From Michigan's Firearm laws, otherwise known as the "Stand your ground" law.

Quote:
780.971 Short title.
Sec. 1. This act shall be known and may be cited as the “self-defense act”.
History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006

780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force
may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of
the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death
of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual
assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than
deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with
no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself
or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.
I have been told by those in the "know" the above applies to defending myself, or someone else, whether they're related or known to me, or not.
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:00 PM   #17
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Yes, you may have the RIGHT to protect yourself or others, but you are not REQUIRED to do so. No-one is saying that you do not have that right. Only LEO's are required to act. But that said, in some situations, it is more prudent for the LEO to be the unnoticed witness than to place him/herself and others in more danger than they are already in.

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Originally posted by Skullcrusher: "I believe the fact that you are LEO speaks for itself. When talking about strong women and guns, you are implied in every statement."

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Glass is proof that women have control over everything in the world.
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasshartt View Post
Yes, you may have the RIGHT to protect yourself or others, but you are not REQUIRED to do so. No-one is saying that you do not have that right. Only LEO's are required to act. But that said, in some situations, it is more prudent for the LEO to be the unnoticed witness than to place him/herself and others in more danger than they are already in.
In some situations, yes, it is better to be a witness. But sometimes, that's not enough.

The example of those security guards in Seattle is one example. I know that their orders were to be witnesses, but, that crap only goes so far. I could NEVER stand by like they did and watch as someone got beat senseless.
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasshartt View Post
Yes, you may have the RIGHT to protect yourself or others, but you are not REQUIRED to do so. No-one is saying that you do not have that right. Only LEO's are required to act. But that said, in some situations, it is more prudent for the LEO to be the unnoticed witness than to place him/herself and others in more danger than they are already in.
I totally agree with Glasshartt. A little story I hope won't bore you and maybe learn something.

In the early early 70's an off duty Detroit cop goes into a bank with his young son about 7 years old. Waiting in line, a guy walks up to the teller with a gun and announces a hold-up. The cop draws his gun puts his son behind him and tells the B.G. " police, freeze, drop the gun".

There is a gunshot and the cop falls to the floor. Another man walks up to the fallen cop and puts another slug into the back of his head, picks up the officers gun and both B.G.'s run out of the bank The second guy was standing in line a few people behind the cop and he was the one who fired the first and second shot, and no one had any clue he was part of the robbery.

Moral: be sure of what is going on around you, and unless you are in danger of losing YOUR life, give the scene a moment to become reality so if you do need to act, you have a fighting chance. Also, think twice about getting involved when you have family members present with you.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:38 PM   #20
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Legally, no matter what we are doing, driving a car, flying a plane, treating an accident victim as an EMT or firing a legally owned and carried gun we are subject to law suits. Unfortunately, we have become a very litigous society. Law suits from the sublime to the ridiculous clog our courts every day.

That said, getting sued for our actions, or inaction, can happen easily. Proving the acusation is a whole other matter. Unfortunately, the financial loss associated with defending yourself is astronomical.

Before any of us makes a decision to draw a weapon we must very carefully consider the consequences, moral, legal and financial.

IMHO we need to do what we feel we need to do at the time the decision is made be it to defend, intervene or be a witness. Every situation WILL be different and no one answer will apply to every situation.

Know the laws, understand the consequences and make a decision.

I can tell you that as a 30 year vetern of my towns Volunteer FD that every time I drive a truck to an emergency call or ever decision I made when I was Chief I was subject to literally thousands of ways to get sued. Will I stop helping others because of that? Not a chance. But thats my decision.

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