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Old 02-25-2008, 02:12 PM   #21
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Defender, you were never taught to identify your self in an armed incounter? Shouting "Police" is standard fare in LE training. Yes, it does slow you down a bit. Admin pogues and trial laywers think it is a good idea. For a civilian CCW holder, not needed in most situations.
You will get raked over the coals for "executing" the poor misguided rampage shooter but WTH, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, right?



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Old 02-25-2008, 06:11 PM   #22
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Since I'm not mentally retarded, I wouldn't attempt to yell at him to begin with. The OP asked our opinion on whether yelling at the top of your lungs was useful, and said nothing about drawing a weapon. I told him to forget the yelling and draw his weapon.

Yelling at the top of your lungs while simultaneously drawing your weapon would most likely hurt your own concentration, and get your assailant's adrenalin flowing. Two things you DON't want to do.
That's where the mentally retarted part comes in. The brain-power needed to yell a single word, like "STOP!" is not enough to distract your concentration, especially if you practice doing it at the range.

Your second point is actually contradicted by your first point. Getting an attacker's adrenalin flowing tends to reduce his concentration. If I don't want that to happen to me, why should that be a bad thing to happen to my opponent?

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Having formerly been in law enforcement--I've never heard of any military entity, police department, SWAT trainer, FBI or individual firearms expert who recommends such foolishness as yelling forcefully while you draw.

If you can point us to one that does, please do.
Then you've been asleep for the last 20 years.

Jeff Cooper mentioned it in some of his writings, dating back to the opening of the "Orange" Gunsite.

James Yeager of Tactical Response actively teaches it in his Fighting Pistol Classes.


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Old 02-26-2008, 04:29 AM   #23
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Does anyone think that if you were to yell at the top of your lungs in the correct way at an attacker it can give you a psychological edge over them or would it make you lose your nerve and concentration in the situation?
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That's where the mentally retarted part comes in. The brain-power needed to yell a single word, like "STOP!" is not enough to distract your concentration, especially if you practice doing it at the range.
Hey, ranger:

You're the one who clearly appears to be mentally retarded, not to mention you can't even spell "retarded".

If you read the original poster's question above, he doesn't say ANYTHING about yelling "stop". You're ASSuming that's what he meant.

What I presumed was that he was talking about yelling at the top of your lungs like Bruce Lee in a martial arts movie, in an effort to "unnerve" your opponent. Please note that the original poster asked if the yelling would give somebody a "psychological edge".

In my years in law enforcement, I've never met a law enforcement officer who thought yelling "stop" was going to give anybody a "psychological edge."

The purpose of an officer yelling "stop" is to get the suspect to stop. I don't know anybody intelligent who thinks that yelling "stop" is going to give you a psychological edge over an opponent.

So in your zeal to launch a personal attack on me, you weren't bright enough to realize that we were talking about two different things.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
Defender, you were never taught to identify your self in an armed incounter? Shouting "Police" is standard fare in LE training. Yes, it does slow you down a bit. Admin pogues and trial laywers think it is a good idea. For a civilian CCW holder, not needed in most situations.
You will get raked over the coals for "executing" the poor misguided rampage shooter but WTH, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, right?
Please show me exactly where the original poster specified that he was talking about yelling things like "stop" or "police" in a law enforcement situation.

Judging by the wording of the first post in this thread, I presumed the OP was referring to shrieking at the top of your lungs in order to unnerve someone, like the "karate experts" in cheap martial arts movies do.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:32 AM   #25
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If I'm in an armed encounter where a perp has a gun that he intends to shoot me with, I'm just going to SHOOT. Forget yelling at the top of your lungs, which would most likely only hurt your own concentration when you need it most.

To hell with the admin pogues and trial lawyers.

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Old 02-26-2008, 01:44 PM   #26
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Keep it civil guys. I'm starting to see things get personal in this thread too.

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Old 02-26-2008, 03:04 PM   #27
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If deadly force is imminently needed, I will shoot and, yes, the heck with the Admin pogues and trial lawyers. If the situation can be defused with out firing a shot, then I will try to avoid the shooting. Far better for everyone to not shoot if it can be avoided.

IMHO and one of the issues that I taught LEO's was an adaptation of Samuri Kendo philosophy. The best way to win a sword fight is to not get cut. The best way to win a gun fight is to not get shot. You can have two winners (no one gets cut or shot). You can have two losers (both get cut or shot). There are several ways to not get shot. 1. Shoot the bad guy before he has the chance to shoot you and hope it incapacitates him immediately so he cannot shoot you before he becomes incapacitated. 2. Run away screaming like a little girl and hope he does not shoot you in the back. I call this the Monty Python defense (Run away! Run away!). 3. Seek cover immediately. engage with your firearm from a position of cover. FBI stats from the last 20 + years say that if you seek cover, you are MUCH more likely to win the armed encounter.

I would much rather be one of the two winners of a gun fight than one of the two losers.

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Old 02-26-2008, 06:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
If you read the original poster's question above, he doesn't say ANYTHING about yelling "stop". You're ASSuming that's what he meant.

What I presumed was that he was talking about yelling at the top of your lungs like Bruce Lee in a martial arts movie, in an effort to "unnerve" your opponent. Please note that the original poster asked if the yelling would give somebody a "psychological edge".
You're accusing me of assuming things, then you go and do the same damned thing. Unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by JohnSilver View Post
Does anyone think that if you were to yell at the top of your lungs in the correct way at an attacker it can give you a psychological edge over them or would it make you lose your nerve and concentration in the situation?
Note the part in red. "In the correct way" is the key in this conversation. There is strong anecdotal evidence that yelling a simple command will distract the bad-guy, as he processes if he should comply or not. Cooper mentions an example of this in his Mental Conditioning for Combat video, where a bad-guy is about to shoot someone, and our hero tells him the gun won't fire, because it's on safe.

While not exactly the same, this is the same principle that we are dealing with here. You are getting into the goblin's thought process. He is in the Decision process of the OODA loop, and you do something that will reset him to orient. It won't necessarily work all the time, but it will not hinder you.

The reason that I, and others, suggest yelling "STOP!" as opposed to any other command, is two-fold. The first deals with your physiology and psychology. While under a stressful situation, the adrenalin dump that your body experiences can often cause auditory exclusion, or not being able to hear extraneous noises. While you may think that you are talking in a loud voice, the bad-guy may not even be able to hear you. In a similar vein, one word commands are best because the amount of thought process needed to convey a full sentence is better served somewhere else.

The second deals with the perceptions of others. I'm sure from your illustrious career as a law officer, that you are aware of the unreliability of eyewitnesses. Three people witness something, and there are 6 different versions of what happens. A simple command of "STOP!" is difficult to misinterpret, and will usually paint you as not being the aggressor. A multiple word command can be mis-heard easily. The eyewitnesses may also be going through the same adrenaline dump that you are. If you yell "STOP, OR I'LL KILL YOU!" it could easily be misinterpreted as "I'LL KILL YOU!"


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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
In my years in law enforcement, I've never met a law enforcement officer who thought yelling "stop" was going to give anybody a "psychological edge."

The purpose of an officer yelling "stop" is to get the suspect to stop. I don't know anybody intelligent who thinks that yelling "stop" is going to give you a psychological edge over an opponent.
If that is the case, you need to get caught up on tactics and training. This is nothing new. In fact, the NRA specifically mentions this in their Personal Protection Outside the Home book. The NRA is certainly not cutting edge in their methods and teachings regarding personal defense. If they are suggesting something, it has been tried and recommended by several other vetted instructors.

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So in your zeal to launch a personal attack on me, you weren't bright enough to realize that we were talking about two different things.
That was not a personal attack. If you want to see a personal attack, I can oblige you
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:37 AM   #29
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Small print doesn't make something civil, what is being said does. I do appreciate you trying to humor me though Ranger.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:06 AM   #30
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You're accusing me of assuming things, then you go and do the same damned thing. Unbelievable.
The only thing unbelievable is your thickheadedness.

Quote:
Note the part in red. "In the correct way" is the key in this conversation. There is strong anecdotal evidence that yelling a simple command will distract the bad-guy, as he processes if he should comply or not. Cooper mentions an example of this in his Mental Conditioning for Combat video, where a bad-guy is about to shoot someone, and our hero tells him the gun won't fire, because it's on safe. While not exactly the same, this is the same principle that we are dealing with here. You are getting into the goblin's thought process. He is in the Decision process of the OODA loop, and you do something that will reset him to orient. It won't necessarily work all the time, but it will not hinder you.
"Anecdotal evidence"?! That's ALL you've got?! Keep humoring me, son.

Show me some HARD RESEARCH from military and police agencies.

Your Cooper example is IRRELEVANT, since it's completely different from what we're talking about. Cooper says NOTHING about "shouting at the top of your lungs" when you tell him the gun is on safe. He's clearly referring to CALMLY pointing out to the guy that it's on safe, hoping he'll look down at it, giving the defender the time to bring his own gun into play.

Cooper is also clearly recommending this to people who are having a gun held on them, and they have yet to access their own gun.

Try using a RELEVANT example next time, big guy!

Quote:
The reason that I, and others, suggest yelling "STOP!" as opposed to any other command, is two-fold. The first deals with your physiology and psychology. While under a stressful situation, the adrenalin dump that your body experiences can often cause auditory exclusion, or not being able to hear extraneous noises. While you may think that you are talking in a loud voice, the bad-guy may not even be able to hear you. In a similar vein, one word commands are best because the amount of thought process needed to convey a full sentence is better served somewhere else.
Thanks, little buddy. But having been in law enforcement, I'm already up to speed on telling people to "stop". I don't need your advice on that.

And that's NOT what I was talking about, and I don't think the original poster was talking about that, but I can't speak for him.

Quote:
The second deals with the perceptions of others. I'm sure from your illustrious career as a law officer, that you are aware of the unreliability of eyewitnesses. Three people witness something, and there are 6 different versions of what happens. A simple command of "STOP!" is difficult to misinterpret, and will usually paint you as not being the aggressor. A multiple word command can be mis-heard easily. The eyewitnesses may also be going through the same adrenaline dump that you are. If you yell "STOP, OR I'LL KILL YOU!" it could easily be misinterpreted as "I'LL KILL YOU!"
How many times do I have to repeat myself?! I'm not talking about using the "stop" command, and I don't believe the original poster was either.

So you're rambling on with your usual irrelevancies.

But since you brought it up---the command of "stop" isn't meant to be "shouted at the top of your lungs", nor is it intended to "psyche out" or "unnerve" the perp. It should be always be used in a controlled, authoritative voice.

Quote:
If that is the case, you need to get caught up on tactics and training. This is nothing new. In fact, the NRA specifically mentions this in their Personal Protection Outside the Home book. The NRA is certainly not cutting edge in their methods and teachings regarding personal defense. If they are suggesting something, it has been tried and recommended by several other vetted instructors.
You need to catch up on exactly what the OP and myself are talking about, because you don't have a clue.

Quote:
That was not a personal attack. If you want to see a personal attack, I can oblige you
Is that a threat?

Calling somebody "mentally retarded" is a personal attack, even if you're not intelligent or honest enough to admit it. So your denial is irrelevant.


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