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Old 12-10-2011, 01:34 PM   #21
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No one is disagreeing with that at all. The right to defend yourself and your loved ones is a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT that is, and should be, guaranteed by, and not GRANTED by the Constitution and affirmed and protected by the government.

The problem comes in when people of NO training start espousing self defense doctrine, and techniques, and worse LAW...and people actually listen to them. "But I read it on the internet" is NOT a satisfactory defense in court.

The OP acted reasonably and correctly in the situation described in the video assuming all the facts were relayed accurately and truthfully.

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You are absolutely correct AZL. With gun ownership comes responsibility. Gun owners should be able to handle them safely and effectively. They should not just go out and buy one and think having it in the house, vehicle or on person will protect them. They should become familiar and comfortable with their firearms, and this can only come from learning about it and firing it. I have a friend who like many rushed out and bought their first handgun or semi-auto rifle when Obama got elected. He bought a Glock in .40 cal and 1000 rounds of ammo. That gun sits in a drawer in a hard case. He never gets it out to look at it. He has had it for more than one year and has never fired it. Several friends have suggested to him that he needs to take a firearms course and learn to use his gun but he always says he is too busy. We have offered to take him shooting many times. He also bought a nice Bushmaster M-4 but it also sits in a case undisturbed. I have told him many times his guns are doing him no good if he is not willing to learn how to use them. Unfortunately some people develop an unhealthy attitude about firearms. They wave their guns around and act real macho. Others even think they have a law or code of their own to live by if they have guns. Most gun owners are law-abiding responsible people and we don't want people doing things with guns that will aid the fight of the anti-gunners or strengthen their resolve.
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Old 12-10-2011, 01:41 PM   #22
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You are absolutely correct AZL. With gun ownership comes responsibility. Gun owners should be able to handle them safely and effectively. They should not just go out and buy one and think having it in the house, vehicle or on person will protect them. They should become familiar and comfortable with their firearms, and this can only come from learning about it and firing it. I have a friend who like many rushed out and bought their first handgun or semi-auto rifle when Obama got elected. He bought a Glock in .40 cal and 1000 rounds of ammo. That gun sits in a drawer in a hard case. He never gets it out to look at it. He has had it for more than one year and has never fired it. Several friends have suggested to him that he needs to take a firearms course and learn to use his gun but he always says he is too busy. We have offered to take him shooting many times. He also bought a nice Bushmaster M-4 but it also sits in a case undisturbed. I have told him many times his guns are doing him no good if he is not willing to learn how to use them. Unfortunately some people develop an unhealthy attitude about firearms. They wave their guns around and act real macho. Others even think they have a law or code of their own to live by if they have guns. Most gun owners are law-abiding responsible people and we don't want people doing things with guns that will aid the fight of the anti-gunners or strengthen their resolve.
Good point! TOO MANY have i seen like this! They are NOT toys, they are NOT conversation pieces (well under the right circumstances they are) they are a deadly serious tool to be RESPECTED!
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Old 12-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by fmj

Good point! TOO MANY have i seen like this! They are NOT toys, they are NOT conversation pieces (well under the right circumstances they are) they are a deadly serious tool to be RESPECTED!
I agree and I think that your final sentence is what AZL is getting At..... In regards to training....

IMO, firearms training SHOULD be received by a Firearms Expert. Nobody else. They are considered Subject Matter Experts (just like other professions it is constantly changing therefore they're always learning).

I teach CCW for free in New Mexico. I don't need the money, but I really enjoy it.

A couple tears back there was an Internet discussion about me ("Learning to shoot from philanthropist Army weapons expert for free, or your friend with a CCW" was the "Topix" thread name)
After a couple months it was apparent that people wanted to learn from a Certified Instructor over the average gun owner.

The thread started to get a LOT if anti gun trolls, eyc do it was eventually dejected by a Moderator. Before it was, I had over 40 requests for training by new gun owners and seasoned owners alike.

I see it this way:

Med Students learn from Doctors because they are the experts.

Law students learn from seasoned lawyers.

People that are advancing their knowledge in any field do so by learning from Subkect Matter Experts.

While I think that it's just fine for a responsible gun owner to "introduce" a new shooter to firearms basics, I advocate attending an approved Firearms Safety Course, CCW, and Marksmanship training that is conducted by a Firearms Instructor (just like a Doctor is the Expert in a hospital, they are Experts on the range).

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Old 12-10-2011, 02:25 PM   #24
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Only in your narrow point of view...

Back to my original point...i have met MANY with "proper certification" or "proper training" teaching WRONG things! In more fields than just this.

The quality of an education is in the pupil and not the teacher.
You make absolutely NO sense whatsoever. It is that kind of BS jive spouted on a forum that someone who has no training will listen to, and then get into trouble because of what they DON'T know. A bad or imcompetent teacher can't help a student, no matter how good the student is.

A "little knowlegde" is a LOT more different and dangerous than none at all.

Can you EFFECTIVELY communicate the difference between "bare fear" and reasonable fear" without trying to google it?

Can you EFFECTIVELY articulate to LE why you took a defensive action in a given situation?

Can you tell me WHY every single time a firearm is used in SD a crime has been committed?

Can you correctly explain castle doctrine?

Can you explain the difference between a "defensive display" and "brandishing a firearm"?

Can you explain "disparity of force" in a manner that the average person would understand and be able to APPLY to a SD situation?

Can you explain "cultural dispositioning" and how and to WHOM it relates in SD?

Would you be able to sit in a courtroom with a prosecutor grilling you about why you did what you did and NOT say anything they could twist to trip you up?

Would you EVER be the guy a defense attorney calls to testify ON BEHALF of a client in a SD case where the freedom and future of the client and his family was at stake? And then be able to EFFECTIVELY explain to a jury why the client is NOT GUILTY of the charges before them, and destroy point by point the prosecutor's case?

Have you read and studied (or even heard of) "Holmes On Homicide"?

Can you explain the different levels of homicide?

Have YOU taught one, let alone tens of hundreds of people how to face SD and be confident in their ability to survive BOTH the critical incident and the aftermath?

None of this is knowlegde you can get anywhere BUT from a competent instructor. You can read all the gun rags, and watch youtube video hacks ALL day long, or listen to armchair, and internet commandos all day long and all you're going to do is "die of stupid" or go to prison for "felony stupid, and negligence above and beyond the call of reason".

What YOU don't know is truly amazing.
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Old 12-10-2011, 02:33 PM   #25
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And the boy can't make a phone call? Obviously if he's an infant or toddler then you're 100% right but that was never specified, but any 4 year old knows how to use a phone...Tell us OP, how old is your son? That oughta settle it right?
The reality is that my son could have called 911 because he's old enough to do that. But it did not become a critical situation till about 10 seconds before I got out off my vehicle. When I made the first turn, I thought this guy is a jerk, but there's no way he will continue to follow me. When I made the second turn and he not only followed me, he forced me off the road, that's when it became critical. At that point my son nor I had time to call 911.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

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Old 12-10-2011, 02:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CarlsbadRanger06 View Post
I agree and I think that your final sentence is what AZL is getting At..... In regards to training....

IMO, firearms training SHOULD be received by a Firearms Expert. Nobody else. They are considered Subject Matter Experts (just like other professions it is constantly changing therefore they're always learning).

I teach CCW for free in New Mexico. I don't need the money, but I really enjoy it.

A couple tears back there was an Internet discussion about me ("Learning to shoot from philanthropist Army weapons expert for free, or your friend with a CCW" was the "Topix" thread name)
After a couple months it was apparent that people wanted to learn from a Certified Instructor over the average gun owner.

The thread started to get a LOT if anti gun trolls, eyc do it was eventually dejected by a Moderator. Before it was, I had over 40 requests for training by new gun owners and seasoned owners alike.

I see it this way:

Med Students learn from Doctors because they are the experts.

Law students learn from seasoned lawyers.

People that are advancing their knowledge in any field do so by learning from Subkect Matter Experts.

While I think that it's just fine for a responsible gun owner to "introduce" a new shooter to firearms basics, I advocate attending an approved Firearms Safety Course, CCW, and Marksmanship training that is conducted by a Firearms Instructor (just like a Doctor is the Expert in a hospital, they are Experts on the range).

That is exactly NOT what I was trying to get at.

An idiot waving his gun around trying to be macho, or sticking his gun in another idiot's face is another matter all together.

I am talking about dilletants and amateurs trying to teach other amateurs.
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Old 12-10-2011, 02:44 PM   #27
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The reality is that my son could have called 911 because he's old enough to do that. But it did not become a critical situation till about 10 seconds before I got out off my vehicle. When I made the first turn, I thought this guy is a jerk, but there's no way he will continue to follow me. When I made the second turn and he not only followed me, he forced me off the road, that's when it became critical. At that point my son nor I had time to call 911.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Juggler
Perfectly as it relates to the incident at hand. YOU were there with your ass in the grass as they say. YOU had to make a critical decision RIGHT NOW, and if what you relayed is accurate, you acted correctly inasmuc as anyone could.

BUT...don't think that anything you can pass on to other newb gun owners is anything remotely close to real training. At best, it can be an informal introdcution to firearms and very basic gun saftey. Remember...everyone you "teach" has nothing else to go on, and the responsibility for their life, freedom, and financial future can rest on what YOU told them. ANY real instructor has to be responsible and accountable for what they pass on. Every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached to it, and similarly EVERYthing you "teach" has a liability attached to it. Are you willing to stand up in court and tell a jury..."Yes...the defendant acted irresponsibly with his firearm, and it's MY fault because he only did what I TOLD HIM TO DO"?
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:13 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by AZL

That is exactly NOT what I was trying to get at.

An idiot waving his gun around trying to be macho, or sticking his gun in another idiot's face is another matter all together.

I am talking about dilletants and amateurs trying to teach other amateurs.
I meant to place emphasis on the "respected" part as it pertains wholly to proper training and instruction......
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:23 PM   #29
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The reality is that my son could have called 911 because he's old enough to do that. But it did not become a critical situation till about 10 seconds before I got out off my vehicle. When I made the first turn, I thought this guy is a jerk, but there's no way he will continue to follow me. When I made the second turn and he not only followed me, he forced me off the road, that's when it became critical. At that point my son nor I had time to call 911.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Juggler
Yes, that does. Thank you juggler!
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:45 PM   #30
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I really don't mean to generalize or stereotype, but I want to share a few of my observations with you. When I am target practicing and see guys who are all decked out in camouflage from head to toe and looking and acting like Larry the Cable Guy, I am thinking, "Oh no, here we go again." So many times I have seen men and even women fitting this description who do some crazy things with guns. I have had them shoot while I was downrange checking my target. I see them bring all kinds of things to use as targets and leave it as trash on public lands. This includes glass bottles, appliances, televisions, computers, etc. I have seen them drink beer while shooting then use their empties as targets. Please, don't think I am picking on one group or saying all people who wear camo are like this. I was only using what I described above as but one example of the lack of responsibility in handling a firearm. Oh, by the way, Larry the Cable Guy is not a real person, but rather a character portrayed by a professional entertainer who does a very good job.

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