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-   -   Why do you want penetration? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f17/why-do-you-want-penetration-42918/)

Cory2 05-24-2011 12:44 AM

Why do you want penetration?
 
Honestly, I don't understand why a round having more penetration is a good thing. As long as a round can get through clothing plus 6-8 inches of flesh it seems like that would be more than sufficient for self defence purposes.

Usually when I see this brought up, it is when people are comparing the .45acp to the 9mm, and the 9mm people say the 9mm has more penetration... Why do you want more penetration than a .45? The .45 has plenty enough to do the trick and seems like any more is just risking over-penetration and potential collateral damage. I always thought that the ideal round would expend all of its energy inside of the target, if you have a round with 13 inches of penetration (i.e. a 9mm) than you arent going to succeed in that endeavor. I have a 43inch chest and its only ~11 inches deep, so 13 inches=overpenetration. Or is there something I am overlooking in this?

Also, I don't want this to become some debate about which round is better than another, Lets keep it on terminal ballistics please :)

IGETEVEN 05-24-2011 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory2 (Post 510535)
Or is there something I am overlooking in this?

Shot placement, as well as penetration. :cool:

And..."That's what she said!" ;)

Jesse17 05-24-2011 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IGETEVEN (Post 510555)
And..."That's what she said!" ;)

I'm glad someone said it. :D:eek:

JonM 05-24-2011 01:58 AM

my opinion:

you want enough juice in a bullet that if it hits a bone it goes through and out the otherside. bullets are more effective for personal defense when there are two holes to leak through. shot placement is primary but the reality of self defense allows little time for aiming at a target the size of a baseball (heart) protected by bone. the head is a very hard target and its a lot bigger than the heart and the head can be seen.

so you want a bullet that goes all the way through to maximize your ability to end a self defense situation with your life intact.

thats why i prefer 45acp 230grn bullets when i can in a handgun. not a lot of overpenetration has the beans to get out the otherside and even if it doesnt expand its still nearly hlf inch in diameter leaving two big holes.

CHLChris 05-24-2011 02:38 AM

I, too, am a big .45acp guy, but penetration means more disturbed surface area in the wound channel out of which to bleed. People don't die of the gun shot, itself (unless to the brain stem), they usually die of the blood loss inducing shock. The more wound channel, the more blood loss quickly. A .22 will cause irreparable blood loss, but speed is of the essence when stopping a threat.

Deeper is better. (Oh don't start...) And girth is even more desirable.

AusLach 05-24-2011 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonM (Post 510598)
my opinion:

you want enough juice in a bullet that if it hits a bone it goes through and out the otherside. bullets are more effective for personal defense when there are two holes to leak through. shot placement is primary but the reality of self defense allows little time for aiming at a target the size of a baseball (heart) protected by bone. the head is a very hard target and its a lot bigger than the heart and the head can be seen.

so you want a bullet that goes all the way through to maximize your ability to end a self defense situation with your life intact.

thats why i prefer 45acp 230grn bullets when i can in a handgun. not a lot of overpenetration has the beans to get out the otherside and even if it doesnt expand its still nearly hlf inch in diameter leaving two big holes.

Lemme just say this; anatomically speaking, the heart and aortic arch are NOT protected by bone. The brain and CNS are. And that in a SD situation, bullets are most effective when they break the CNS circuit, or drop blood pressure to critical levels instantly (with shots to the brainstem/spinal cord, heart/aortic arch respectively), so as Jack said, shot placement is the key.

A little more penetration gives more flexibility and reliability when shot presentation is not optimal, eg. if the attacker is side-on. Because everyone should have enough practice so that when presentation is optimal, placement is perfect anyway :cool:

c3shooter 05-24-2011 02:46 AM

Do not assume that you and an assailant will be facing each other squarely, on the same level. You MAY be lying on the ground, looking up at your assailant's side as he draws back his boot to continue kicking the snot out of you. Measure how much penetration you need then, and you see some different numbers.

Yes, in that position you COULD shoot him in the crotch- but do you know how hard it is to hit TINY little targets when you're in a hurry? :p

Me- I would like two holes. One to let air in, one to let blood out.

CHLChris 05-24-2011 02:52 AM

Now that ^^^^^ suggests FMJ, which isn't a bad choice in some situations. If SHTF, I would probably load up FMJ's. If just walking around town, it is JHP's for me, but penetration is EXTREMELY important if you are expecting trouble.

If trouble's coming, though, I wouldn't have a handgun in my hands, though.

spittinfire 05-24-2011 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IGETEVEN (Post 510555)
And..."That's what she said!" ;)

at least I didn't have to take it there....because I wanted to.

Why is penetration important....you've got to get to the boiler room to make things shut down. Penetration is needed but not all that is required.

mesinge2 05-24-2011 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c3shooter (Post 510637)
Do not assume that you and an assailant will be facing each other squarely, on the same level. You MAY be lying on the ground, looking up at your assailant's side as he draws back his boot to continue kicking the snot out of you. Measure how much penetration you need then, and you see some different numbers.

Yes, in that position you COULD shoot him in the crotch- but do you know how hard it is to hit TINY little targets when you're in a hurry? :p

Me- I would like two holes. One to let air in, one to let blood out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHLChris (Post 510641)
Now that ^^^^^ suggests FMJ, which isn't a bad choice in some situations. If SHTF, I would probably load up FMJ's. If just walking around town, it is JHP's for me, but penetration is EXTREMELY important if you are expecting trouble.

If trouble's coming, though, I wouldn't have a handgun in my hands, though.

That's why I like my 44 magnum. Hollow points with penetraition. Anything to post a picture of Bertha: p

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