When is it NOT OK to use a firearm to defend yourself? - Page 3
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:19 PM   #21
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As far as other "disqualifiers" it's really pretty simple.

If a reasonable person in your shoes would feel that you or anyone else is in danger of death or grave bodily harm, lethal force is justified. Period.

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Old 10-28-2013, 11:22 PM   #22
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As far as other "disqualifiers" it's really pretty simple.

If a normal person would feel that you or anyone else is in danger of death or grave bodily harm, lethal force is justified. Period.
Trying to refine "if a normal person would feel..." a bit and compare it amongst the forumites.

Lets talk distance, at what distance would a normal person feel threatened by the approach of a non-uniformed and non-canine person carrying a firearm in their right hand? 100 yards? 50 yards? 30 feet? 15 feet? Halitosis range?

What of the other disqualifiers would best negate the effect of closing distance, attitude, armament, familiarity?
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:23 PM   #23
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It is almost never a good idea to debate "lawful orders" on the side of the road.

I'm not goin to address this from a legal perspective. Common sense and case law both agree that unless the cop is telling you to shoot yourself or something equally ridiculous, you should follow those orders and sue his pants off later.

I will address this from a "how can you best survive this encounter" perspective.

It is never a good idea to pick a fight with a K9. I've seen them drag a person across an entire parking lot and into a ditch, rip all of a persons clothes off, rip their entire calf muscle off, and eat the persons testicle. If a K9 is involved, slowly do what your told even if its rape a porcupine. If they're wrong, sue the crap out of them.

If a cop has a gun on you, the dumbest possible thing that you could do is try to draw yours. You will get shot. He has the drop on you, is wearing body armor, has more ammo than you do, and also if his weapon is out, he has backup coming your way at 100 mph from every county on the radio frequency. Being dead kinda makes being right not matter anymore.

Even If you win, you're looking at a minimum of lifetime in prison. And that's if they take it easy on you. His buddies will be thinking about you the way you would be thinking about someone who killed your brother or your dad and was still on the loose.

If a cop is shooting at you, the smart thing to do first is to loudly let them know that you arent resisting and that you're recording everything on your phone. If that doesn't work, good luck. Do what you have to do. And pray very very hard. If you don't believe in God, now would be a good time to start.
well said Delta! you summed it up pretty good from the perspective of a LEO. being right and dead does your or anyone else any good. if a LEO did wrong and broke the law or violated your rights, the best course of action is to take it to court. file complaints with his superiors or the highest ranking officer. many LE agencies don't want a rogue cop on their payroll. it looks bad. enough complaints of an officer violating people's rights or doing things wrong will have the agency sending him to the unemployment line.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:25 PM   #24
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The bottom line is this: If you ever kill a cop, whether he had just cause to draw on you or not, your life as you know it is over. With a little luck, his fellow officers will kill you within minutes or hours of the incident and you will be out of your misery. With bad luck you will spend ten years on death row before having poison pumped into your body while people watch you die through the little window.

I don't know where all of the fantasy situations come from. The chances of a law-abiding citizen being gunned-down by a rogue cop are less then you being struck by lightning. It happens, yes, but not often enough to worry about.
I am sure you are correct on that one. We had a verbal altercation between a couple end up with a dead Sheriff.

http://centralny.ynn.com/content/news/546306/neighbors-shocked-and-saddened-by-knoxboro-shooting/

The blue wall went up and the guy who was trying to survive the same way he did in Iraq went to jail for the rest of his life!


I guess what it boils down to for me is fearing for my life or the life of one of my loved ones. If it comes to that, I will have to decide if that fear warrants the risk of a possible lethal response. If doing nothing means certain death, Im going to do something for sure!
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:36 PM   #25
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I guess what it boils down to for me is fearing for my life or the life of one of my loved ones. If it comes to that, I will have to decide if that fear warrants the risk of a possible lethal response. If doing nothing means certain death, Im going to do something for sure!
I would react in the same way. Due to our proximity to a federal prison we have lawyers in the area with plenty of experience at suing police/prisons. If an officer wants to jerk me around for no reason I can deal with it.

Otherwise I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:50 PM   #26
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Rather than worrying about "what if," better to concentrate on "what is." Spend your time thinking about some far out, unlikely scenario and you'll get caught off guard. Like some sweet young thing smiling at you, then sticking a shiv in your gut to get money for her junkie boyfriend. That's a lot more likely than being confronted by the local SWAT team.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:51 PM   #27
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I think some of these concerns never existed when the police needed to be able to rely on the good guys in a jam. That's the way it was when I was younger. There was some mutual respect and cops patrolled alone or in pairs, without bulletproof vests, in a town that could only have been compared to Dodge City of the movies. I never heard of one of them getting badly hurt. Now, they're all dressed up like the Michelin Man and armed for combat. I think that promotes bad attitudes.

I've had a few personal encounters with bullies wearing a uniform. I've also had other dealings with good solid, respectable cops. I have never understood and will never accept the code of omertà that requires otherwise good cops to protect bad cops and leaves civilians at their mercy. It's not the way I would do it. Guaranteed.

I do believe that it would be a lot easier to take the (probably good) advice of abject surrender to any cop at any time if there was more trust that other cops would try to do the right thing and not just protect their colours.

DeltaF, that was probably the best advice a person could give - or hear - on this issue in this day and age.

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Old 10-29-2013, 12:28 AM   #28
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Many years ago, I was picked up for armed robbery. I was out for a walk a block from my rented house. I was dressed very much like the robber was said to be dressed. I was carrying a concealed boot knife that was not legal to conceal. I had nooo idea why I was being arrested/detained.

Had I been carrying a concealed firearm, I would not have felt the need to use it for several reasons. The officers were uniformed (classic POLICE uniforms, not BDU's that look like a SWAT team or soldier). The officers' commands were very clear; they were not cursing at me like those idiots on COPS; they were not running toward me in an aggressive manner. The officers were unanimously polite; as polite as you can be while patting down somebody on the pavement and putting them in handcuffs and then in a patrol car. They were polite and clear and professional to the point that I was actually a bit stunned by their presentation. The only time I felt in danger was the few seconds during which all of their sidearms were pointed at me (when the officer found the knife I was trying to disclose). The ATTITUDE of these officers was utterly disarming, well beyond their firearms, batons, or pepper spray. Whoever was training the Hattiesburg, MS city police in the early 1990's was doing a really great job on their "people skills", IMO. Cursing, repeated yelled commands, nervous jockeying for the best "covering position", and such silliness should be discouraged in patrol officers, IMO. Maybe the rookies could imagine every person the cast on COPS encounters to be their aged grandmother for perspective.

Attitude is the disqualifier that makes the most difference to me when encountering an armed person. I encounter armed people pretty regularly here, mostly my friends, but occasionally some cashier at a small store or person OCing while fueling their car or just some person in a parking lot OCing or some dude walking in a country field or hunting land with a shotgun. If I know the person, that puts me at ease to some degree, but it is their attitude that makes the biggest difference in perceived threat level. If that person waves, nods, or says "hey, how goes it", I view them as much less of a threat. I try to keep that in mind when I OC during a fuel up, smile, nod, make eye contact in a non-threatening manner. I think that it would be a good idea for everyone who carries a firearm to try to project a non-threatening, even friendly attitude to those they encounter while armed.


(I did not do the robbery. The clerk could not identify me. The officers returned my knife and offered me a ride back to my house 150 yards away and suggested a sand wedge as a better defense while out for a walk.)

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Old 10-29-2013, 12:29 AM   #29
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Even If you win, you're looking at a minimum of lifetime in prison. And that's if they take it easy on you. His buddies will be thinking about you the way you would be thinking about someone who killed your brother or your dad and was still on the loose.

If a cop is shooting at you, the smart thing to do first is to loudly let them know that you arent resisting and that you're recording everything on your phone. If that doesn't work, good luck. Do what you have to do. And pray very very hard. If you don't believe in God, now would be a good time to start.
That's what I have a problem with. If I am completely in the right and the officer is completely in the wrong, I still go to prison/death row regardless of the truth and the reality of it (keeping in mind this is a hypothetical situation). The cops have sheer numbers on their side and they will lie under oath to protect the Boys in Blue. This has been demonstrated time and time again, even to the point of innocent people going to their deaths.

You can argue that it is a rare occurrence but I would counter that any occurrence is too many. There are many well known cases where people have been placed in these situations. Randy Weaver, Leonard Peltier, several cases in New Orleans following Katrina. As I said, many cases, some where people have been convicted and sentenced, and some where police should have been charged and tried in court (but weren't). In the vast majority of the cases the person serving time is not the cop.

I would submit that this is, in fact, the epitome of a police state.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:02 AM   #30
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Again I am not debating the legal side. It's layed out very well from a case law point of view. Cops and agencies constantly catch the short end of the stick.

The legal issues at that moment are irrelevant. Who is right does not matter when the gun comes out. At that point it's about who gets to stay alive and hopefully that's everybody. The rightness will be sorted out later, when the guns get out away.

The same can be said for facing a group of bad guys with guns.

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Last edited by DeltaF; 10-29-2013 at 01:11 AM.
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