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Old 06-21-2013, 04:49 PM   #71
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Just because we all jumped through the hoops and earned the right to CC!! Doesn't mean we all have the ideal temperament or personality to carry!!
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:15 PM   #72
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I agree. I have taught well over 500 students in Armed Self Defense to date as far as I know none of them have fired a shot. Some may have had to use the psychological use to dissuade an attack, but I have not heard from any of them about this. (I ask all my students to let me know if they ever had to use their firearm in any way to defend themselves or others)
I have had to pull my gun several times off duty but have not fired a shot off duty.
An off duty LEO has a benefit that a convenience store clerk does not have. Several in fact. There is a night and day difference between the two, when officers are called to a crime scene with a report of a man with a gun. One is instantly seen as an officer in trouble, requiring immediate assistance. Aid comes just as fast as call going out, officer down. The convenience store clerk is more than likely going to be treated as a suspected fellon. Likely to be handcuffed, likely to be detained, likely to loose possession of the firearm for days, weeks, months, and likely to have their CHP pulled, temporary or permanently.

Having a CHP is not a deck of cards in a long game, it is one card, in a very short game. Other players are the bad guy, the investigating police officers, prosecuting attorney, civil attorneys, irate family members, your church, and even your family.

Another issue not covered in this thread is negligent discharge, or a kinder term, accidental discharge. You see a bad guy, you pull your gun from your holster, and instantly, a secure firearm, with a protected trigger, is exposed. Somehow, unknown to you, the gun goes off. Does the bullet lodge in your leg, does it strike the person you presume to be a bad guy, or does it hit a school bus full of third graders?

In public, the only place for your firearm is in the relative safety of its holster, out of danger. If you cannot go from high alert to shooting your firearm in a split second, holstered to shots fired, something is less than ideal.
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:40 PM   #73
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I train with two sidearms, a Glock 20, and a Beretta PX4 Storm Sub Compact 9mm. 10mm is 21 rounds with one in the pipe, and the 9mm is 18 rounds.

I use the same brand of holster for both guns, a level II Serpa. The time it takes to go from holstered, to shots fired, with this holster is negligible.

Someone asked me if a knife was pulled on me, would I respond with drawing a knife or a gun? In all likelihood, I would flee or disarm this person with my whits or fists.

If I were a store clerk, I would hand the knife toating robber the money and back away. Call the police and let them deal with the aftermath.

If the robber approached me, with a knife, and I felt my life was in danger, depending on circumstances, he may or may not get a verbal warning I have a gun. If the warning fails to stop the advancement, in a split second I would go from ready to shots fired at center mass. I would only engage the target if I was certain no other alternatives were available to me, and no innocent bystanders could be injured from my projectiles.

In the weeks and months to follow, I could loose everything I own, to pay an attorney to defend my actions. Most people go from well off to soup lines that shoot someone, justified or not.

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Old 06-21-2013, 05:51 PM   #74
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So I know what I should do if I ever have to shoot somebody. But what should I do if i find myself having to draw my weapon and that ends the confrontation? If there are witnesses especially? Like if I draw my gun, and the bad guy runs away should I still report the incident to police? Or do I just reholster and walk away?
I second C3's advice but... situation will dictate.

My first DGU was facing 3 thugs on dark sidewalk at 1:00 A.M.

I did not draw the gun because brushing back my coat, grabbing the grip, and shouting HALT was enough to send them scurrying away.

...as there were no "other" witnesses... I'm certain there story would have been that they were simply moving out of the way to let me pass, "which I took for fanning out to attack."

Given all this, I did not call the Police and just went on home.

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Old 06-21-2013, 10:38 PM   #75
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I agree but by law!! We no longer are born with the right to carry a deadly weapon!! And that debate will last forever!! And I always give both sides a fair glance at what is best for the people as a whole!! Got to remember how much has changed in the last 250 years!! Transportation being one of huge revolutions to make a drastic change!! Not to mention technology, well just about everything!! Hard to imagine our forefathers writing the exact laws and principles if they lived in today's world!! I often compare cc to driving a automobile!! Both can be a deadly weapon if not entrusted in responsible hands!! And I feel there must me some kind of testing and background check before issuing cc permits!! Ownership?? No!! CC?? Yes!! Last thing I want is my local McDonald's to be flooded with nuts that don't have proper perspective or judgement carrying high powered guns!! Just my opinion!
So you do not believe in the 2nd Amendment! Sorry to hear that.
Driving is not a 'right', self defense is, and motor vehicles are millions of times more dangerous than guns. Human nature has not changed in the last 5000+ years. You just said you do not trust anyone with a gun except yourself (in so many words) and this is the attitude some of the cops I worked with had. You are 100% wrong. Out of 1000 people out there there are less than 5 whom you need to worry about even considering victimizing you. The GOOD FAR OUTNUMBER THE BAD!!! If we were all armed the crime would drop to near 0 in a heartbeat and we could reduce our police forces by about 75% and be much safer than we are now.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:45 PM   #76
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An off duty LEO has a benefit that a convenience store clerk does not have. Several in fact. There is a night and day difference between the two, when officers are called to a crime scene with a report of a man with a gun. One is instantly seen as an officer in trouble, requiring immediate assistance. Aid comes just as fast as call going out, officer down. The convenience store clerk is more than likely going to be treated as a suspected fellon. Likely to be handcuffed, likely to be detained, likely to loose possession of the firearm for days, weeks, months, and likely to have their CHP pulled, temporary or permanently.

Having a CHP is not a deck of cards in a long game, it is one card, in a very short game. Other players are the bad guy, the investigating police officers, prosecuting attorney, civil attorneys, irate family members, your church, and even your family.

Another issue not covered in this thread is negligent discharge, or a kinder term, accidental discharge. You see a bad guy, you pull your gun from your holster, and instantly, a secure firearm, with a protected trigger, is exposed. Somehow, unknown to you, the gun goes off. Does the bullet lodge in your leg, does it strike the person you presume to be a bad guy, or does it hit a school bus full of third graders?

In public, the only place for your firearm is in the relative safety of its holster, out of danger. If you cannot go from high alert to shooting your firearm in a split second, holstered to shots fired, something is less than ideal.
Last time I checked this was not an 'ideal' world, except in the minds of a few of our politicians!!!
Most of your post deals with 'possibility' not 'probability'! Think about it!!!
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:17 PM   #77
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Absolutely!! I think your point is that every crises is not a life threatening crises!! Us gun owners tend to fantasies about the day we will be able to draw are guns and save the world!! The fact is most law abiding citizens that mind there own business and don't look for trouble will never run into a situation that justifies deadly force!! Like yourself, most situations that is stumbled upon can be handled long before a weapons is considered an option!! My guess is.. If you had a gun you would have drawn it!! Homeless guy would have walked away!! Police would have been called and you would of been in all kinds of legal hot water!! Unlike law enforcement, our general rights to use a gun or even draw a gun is "last resort" not "easiest" or "because I have it"!! Carrying a gun gives us no special rights, other than the fact we can carry!! But the laws remain the same, weather we carry or not!!
I do not "fantasize" about drawing my gun.

I hope to find myself upon a peaceful death bed many years from, surrounded by adoring children, grand, and great grand children, having NEVER drawn my gun.

I do "not" carry a gun to save the world... I carry a gun to make sure that when I leave this world it will be because it's my time... and not for the convenience of some Goblin.

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Old 06-21-2013, 11:36 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JimRau

So you do not believe in the 2nd Amendment! Sorry to hear that.
Driving is not a 'right', self defense is, and motor vehicles are millions of times more dangerous than guns. Human nature has not changed in the last 5000+ years. You just said you do not trust anyone with a gun except yourself (in so many words) and this is the attitude some of the cops I worked with had. You are 100% wrong. Out of 1000 people out there there are less than 5 whom you need to worry about even considering victimizing you. The GOOD FAR OUTNUMBER THE BAD!!! If we were all armed the crime would drop to near 0 in a heartbeat and we could reduce our police forces by about 75% and be much safer than we are now.
I don't believe in the 2nd amendment?? I don't trust anyone with a gun?? Wow those are strong words!! First of all I love this country and the basic principles and laws that is was founded on!! Human nature may not have changed but the ability to react has, through transportation, communication, etc!! Rage, jealousy, revenge and a million other extreme emotions that may cause a premature use of a firearm 100 years ago had the ability, with time to level off!! Today?? I can be half way around the world in a few hours!! More than that I can call someone to be there in minutes!! I huge difference in the landscape of firearms in today's world!! And now that we know numbers 5 out of 1000 another thing we didn't know 200 years ago!! 5 out of 1000 is to high for me!! If I can help drop that number by submitting a background check to carry a firearm! Why wouldn't I?? Isn't that what we all want, a Safer world?? CC is 1 way to curve violence, so is getting the guns out of the small % of the population that in no way can be justified to carry a butter knife, much less a gun!! Ownership to defend your castle is completely different than 21 year old kids toting there high powered guns to the local library I think we can all agree to that!!
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Old 06-22-2013, 01:10 AM   #79
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I don't believe in the 2nd amendment?? I don't trust anyone with a gun?? Wow those are strong words!! First of all I love this country and the basic principles and laws that is was founded on!! Human nature may not have changed but the ability to react has, through transportation, communication, etc!! Rage, jealousy, revenge and a million other extreme emotions that may cause a premature use of a firearm 100 years ago had the ability, with time to level off!! Today?? I can be half way around the world in a few hours!! More than that I can call someone to be there in minutes!! I huge difference in the landscape of firearms in today's world!! And now that we know numbers 5 out of 1000 another thing we didn't know 200 years ago!! 5 out of 1000 is to high for me!! If I can help drop that number by submitting a background check to carry a firearm! Why wouldn't I?? Isn't that what we all want, a Safer world?? CC is 1 way to curve violence, so is getting the guns out of the small % of the population that in no way can be justified to carry a butter knife, much less a gun!!
That right there shows you either don't fully believe in the 2nd Amendment, or you just don't understand it.

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
― Thomas Jefferson,

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

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Ownership to defend your castle is completely different than 21 year old kids toting there high powered guns to the local library I think we can all agree to that!!
BTW, I'm 20.
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Old 06-22-2013, 01:39 AM   #80
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That right there shows you either don't fully believe in the 2nd Amendment, or you just don't understand it.

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
― Thomas Jefferson,

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

BTW, I'm 20.
Thomas Jefferson!! I've heard of that guy!! He would of been 295 last month!! See you in the CC line to submit a background check!! Only difference Is I m good either way! Narrow minded people like yourself stay upset over needed changes in an ever changing world!! I have nothing else to say!! Have a great weekend!!
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