[matt g]

Originally Posted by stalkingbear

Robocop-have you ever tested the barnes xpb? When barnes first came out with their rifle bullets,you couldn't give them to me,But the "new" crop of handgun bullets perform exceptionally well. Just a note,several blackpowder sabot rounds and taurus .45 acp ammo is loaded with these bullets. I like to load the 185 gr xpb .45 acp (.451) at appox 1100 fps for my defense load and even at that velocity,they still perform great!

Are the XBPs solid copper like the rifle bullets are?

Originally Posted by robocop10mm

Barnes makes some fine bullets. I do not know of any factory loads with the Barnes XPB. You can handload them BUT, and that is one really big but, you should NEVER use handloads for self defense. You will be CRUCIFIED by prosecutors and personal injury scum bag lawyers. They will make an issue of you supercharging ammo to cause massive damage and pain. They WILL make this the major issue.

The same could even be said of factory loaded hollow points.

[robocop10mm]

The same could even be said of factory loaded hollow points.[/QUOTE]

With the right expert witnesses Hollow Points end up looking like the tamest alternative. I will explain my rationale;

A bullet must cause sufficient disruption/tissue damage/blood loss to incapacitate the attacker. A good hollow point is MUCH more likely do do this with a minimal number of shots. Statistically, the survival rate of gun shot victims goes exponentially down with the number of shots they absorb. If one or two shots causes the attacker to cease his attack, then he will have a reasonable expectation of survival. If it takes more than 5 torso hits (FMJ's) to convince him to stop he has almost no chance for survival. The reason for this is access to good trauma care is at an all time high in the USA. Doctors can do remarkable things to patch up one or two holes and save said attackers life. If they have to patch up a bunch of holes they cannot patch em fast enough to offset the continuing blood loss and there are only so many surgeons that can work on you at one time...result, you will likely die.

I know, this sounds a little bass ackwards but that is the kind of arguement a good expert witness will explain to a jury when a prosecutor tries to paint you as evil because you used hollow point ammo. And, if you use the same ammo your local PD/SO/State LE use it makes it almost impossible for them to even bring up the argument and risk painting their own officers/agencies as evil hollow point carrying killers.

[robocop10mm]

On the wet phone book topic. PLEASE do not rely on wet phone books for judging effectiveness of ammunition. All it does it determine how well the ammo will perform in wet phone books. Unless you are being attacked by rabid wet phone books, the information gleaned from such tests is (at best) worthless in determining effectiveness on human targets.

In my professional experience the "best" ammo for your gun is

1. Speer Gold Dot
2. Federal Hydrashok
3. Winchester SXT
4. Winchester Silvertip
In that order.

Standard Remington Golden Sabres are VERY poor performers. Bonded Golden Sabres MAY be good but I have not seen sufficient data to support them.

[matt g]

Originally Posted by robocop10mm

With the right expert witnesses Hollow Points end up looking like the tamest alternative. I will explain my rationale;

A bullet must cause sufficient disruption/tissue damage/blood loss to incapacitate the attacker. A good hollow point is MUCH more likely do do this with a minimal number of shots. Statistically, the survival rate of gun shot victims goes exponentially down with the number of shots they absorb. If one or two shots causes the attacker to cease his attack, then he will have a reasonable expectation of survival. If it takes more than 5 torso hits (FMJ's) to convince him to stop he has almost no chance for survival. The reason for this is access to good trauma care is at an all time high in the USA. Doctors can do remarkable things to patch up one or two holes and save said attackers life. If they have to patch up a bunch of holes they cannot patch em fast enough to offset the continuing blood loss and there are only so many surgeons that can work on you at one time...result, you will likely die.

I know, this sounds a little bass ackwards but that is the kind of arguement a good expert witness will explain to a jury when a prosecutor tries to paint you as evil because you used hollow point ammo. And, if you use the same ammo your local PD/SO/State LE use it makes it almost impossible for them to even bring up the argument and risk painting their own officers/agencies as evil hollow point carrying killers.

I'm with you 100%, but, as a counterpoint, with the right expert witness a lawyer can and will hammer you in a wrongful death lawsuit.

Lawyer: When you took the shot, did you shoot to incapacitate or did you shoot to kill?

Defendant: I shot to stop the threat.

L: What did you use to stop the threat?

D: I used my .45 ACP pistol that was loaded with (favorite HP).

L: Why the hollow point ammunition? Isn't it true that hollow points cause massive internal trauma?

D: That's true, but there are many studies that have concluded that a bullet must cause sufficient disruption/tissue damage/blood loss to incapacitate the attacker. A good hollow point is MUCH more likely do do this with a minimal number of shots. Statistically, the survival rate of gun shot victims goes exponentially down with the number of shots they absorb. If one or two shots causes the attacker to cease his attack, then he will have a reasonable expectation of survival.

L: Good to know, no further questions Your Honor. The plaintiff you now like to call our ammunition expert to refute the defendant's statements...

[robocop10mm]

Then your lawyer calls your own expert to refute the other "expert".

I will always recommend that you carry the ammo the police officers in your jurisdiction carry. That will always give you an out. If this ammo is SOOOOO deadly then why does the PD allow/mandate its officers carry it? Decent people on juries can see the logic in that and see right through the BS some PI lawyer tries to shovel.

[spittinfire]

[QUOTE=robocop10mm;59013]On the wet phone book topic. PLEASE do not rely on wet phone books for judging effectiveness of ammunition. All it does it determine how well the ammo will perform in wet phone books. Unless you are being attacked by rabid wet phone books, the information gleaned from such tests is (at best) worthless in determining effectiveness on human targets.

I'll agree with this to a point, this could be said about any test media outside of a living target, either human or similar in size structure. I'm sure some medias are more realistic than others I can't afford the gel and I had some old phone books. While I do deer hunting I haven't tried this with a 3" 9mm which carries a nice fine in NC.

I didn't base my entire decision on the phone books, but it was fun to do! I did my research and tried different rounds and picked the one that I liked best.

[matt g]

Originally Posted by robocop10mm

Then your lawyer calls your own expert to refute the other "expert".

I will always recommend that you carry the ammo the police officers in your jurisdiction carry. That will always give you an out. If this ammo is SOOOOO deadly then why does the PD allow/mandate its officers carry it? Decent people on juries can see the logic in that and see right through the BS some PI lawyer tries to shovel.

I don't even take it that far. I load what I know will work, it's legal for me to buy off the shelf and it's sold with the intent of personal defense.

Geeze, I think I bought that box of Hydrashocks before Speer even came out with the Gold Dots.

[canebrake]

I use Corbon Pow`Rball 45ACP +P, Powerball, 165 GR, 1225 fps for my double tap. Its proven to penetrate auto side glass with little expansion. The rest of the mag feeds Hornaday 45ACP +P 230 GR TAP. I'm comfortable with it.

[Bighead]

Originally Posted by InedaBullet

What ammo is the best for personal defense? Speer Gold Dot or the Federal HydraShok?

I wouldn't want to live on the difference between the two. Both are excellent self-defense rounds and either will serve you well. Also consider Winchester SXT and Corbon DPX.

Consider testing the different loads you're considering to make sure your gun eats them without issues.

Good luck.

[amaysn]

Hello all,

I stumbled upon this thread while researching what would be my best choice for a personal defense/carry ammunition. I found a site that has some excellent information regarding some of the bullets that have been mentioned in this thread that you may want to check out. They don't test performance in only BG, but they also use four layers of denim as well. I found it very interesting how contact with a soft barrier could inhibit the performance of some well know and respected projectiles. It's interesting to note that the Gold Dot bullets appear be the best for my particular use, as a soft barrier essentially made some of the other bullets turn into FMJ's as far as over-penetration is concerned.


Tactical Briefs, August 2002