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Old 10-01-2013, 05:55 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911love
Delta, I've used a Blackhawk Serpa CQC for OWB during the winter for a few years now. Why is that type begging for a mis-fire? I heard someone else talking about it, but it wasn't explained very well.
This is a personal thing for me. Many people use them and never have a problem.

I'll explain my choice with a caveat, not directed at you 1911, but for some of the other guys on here who get their feelings hurt any time they feel like someone may have even the slightest negative thing to say about their equipment, and then try to kick off a trollish debate where they recycle the same arguments over and over again.

Caveat: This is my choice. I am not saying that no one should ever use these holsters. I am not saying that they don't have their place. And I am not debating the following statements with anyone. If you are a super cool secret squirrel tactical lawn gnome elimination squad member and use one of these holsters because your team member who served in the seals, rangers, green berets and a New York hot dog stand told you that they were the greatest invention since bottled pig vomit, then great for you! Keep carrying in it.

I don't like them FOR ME for these reasons:

1) Pressing a button with my trigger finger means I am already beginning to curl my finger as I pull the gun out of the holster. If I'm under a lot of pressure because I'm in a self defense situation, its too easy of a transition for that finger to keep curling and hit the trigger guard and then the trigger.

2) That trigger finger is supposed to stay straight and land on the slide unless I'm doing reactive shooting directly from the holster. Especially given that I usually only carry weapons with internal safeties.

3) It's easy to keep that finger straight even under stress if its not moving. I dont even think about it anymore. I just do it. I don't want to have think about what that trigger finger is doing until I make the decision to shoot.

4) Every holster I own uses some type of thumb break method (except for the pocket holsters) as part of the release process. It's consistent for me across the board. Since every holster I use has a thumb break, it would be an odd adjustment to me to have to release the retention device on ONE oddball holster with my trigger finger instead of my thumb. And then I would have to think about what gun I was carrying in what holster under stress.

5) I don't want to think about any of those things at all if I'm drawing my gun. I need to have my eyes on the subject and be thinking about what he is doing and I need to be moving towards wherever the nearest cover or concealment is. Everything else should be a reaction.

I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you though. If somebody gave me one I'd probably use it out in the woods or a trip to good off at the firing range . I just wouldn't choose to buy it.myself.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:12 AM   #62
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Interesting thread.

Would you seek out a Chevy mechanic to work on your vehicle that had about 25 minutes total wrench time, and had almost no formal training?

How about a dentist, lawyer, doctor, roofer, plumber, or any skilled laborer?

Point I am making is this, it is not the Serpa holster that is the problem, it is the skill level of the gun owner, in using the equipment.

In carrying, if you do not train, you have no business with a gun. I carry 24/7 with a Serpa and a Glock 23C. I only open carry in firearms training classes, I never OC in public, because I choose to CC.

For open carry, I only recommend triple retention holsters. So many people that OC, including LEOs, get blindsided with a brick or rock, and shot and killed with their own handgun. A complex triple retention holster can save your life.

Get a triple retention holster, go to a big box store, or order several on line, keeping the one you prefer for quality and safety features you would trust your life with, get a matching blue or orange safety trainer handgun, and after 10,000 presentations (practice draws) over months of training, you are possibly ready to open carry.

I would highly recommend three NRA classes before attempting to carry, open or concealed.

Basic Pistol
Personal Protection In The Home
Personal Protection Outside The Home

Anyone without these classes under their belt, or equivalent or more advanced classes, has no business with a sidearm on their belt. IMHO

Training, with the appropriate equipment, makes all the difference between success and failure.

A better class resume than the one I listed would be this group of NRA offerings:

Basis Instructor Training (BIT )
Instructor Certified Pistol
Instructor Personal Protection In The Home
Instructor Personal Protection Outside The Home, Basic and Advanced
Range Safety Officer
Chief Range Safety Officer

This would insure you had the knowledge, skills and attitude necessary to safely walk about with a firearm, concealed or open carry, and allow you to safely train others to likewise do so.

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Old 10-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #63
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Quote:
I don't like them FOR ME for these reasons:

1) Pressing a button with my trigger finger means I am already beginning to curl my finger as I pull the gun out of the holster. If I'm under a lot of pressure because I'm in a self defense situation, its too easy of a transition for that finger to keep curling and hit the trigger guard and then the trigger.

2) That trigger finger is supposed to stay straight and land on the slide unless I'm doing reactive shooting directly from the holster. Especially given that I usually only carry weapons with internal safeties.

3) It's easy to keep that finger straight even under stress if its not moving. I dont even think about it anymore. I just do it. I don't want to have think about what that trigger finger is doing until I make the decision to shoot.
DeltaF has summed up my thinking on holsters requiring the index finger to do anything other than its primary job.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:41 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR10
Interesting thread.


Point I am making is this, it is not the Serpa holster that is the problem, it is the skill level of the gun owner, in using the equipment.
Quote:

For open carry, I only recommend triple retention holsters. So many people that OC, including LEOs, get blindsided with a brick or rock, and shot and killed with their own handgun. A complex triple retention holster can save your life.

Get a triple retention holster,
I agree that a triple retention holster is probably needed in most OC situations. But how can you make those two statements? That Serpa is not a triple retention holster. And I've NEVER seen a triple retention holster with an index finger button placed there.


Quote:
get a matching blue or orange safety trainer handgun, and after 10,000 presentations (practice draws) over months of training, you are possibly ready to open carry.
WTF?! I didn't do that much crap in the police academy. My friends that are MPs didnt do that crap in their training. Hell I have friends in special forces that didnt practice steps of the draw that many times. That is completely rediculous. It is 3-4 times more repetitions than even sports scientist recommend for muscle memory purposes. Totally over the top.

That much practice is good, if you have the time an energy go for it. It will definitely insure your proficiency. But it's not required to make you "possibly ready to open carry." A few minutes a day will suffice for that. If you need 10,000 reps to master your holster, get a different dang holster.

Quote:
I would highly recommend three NRA classes before attempting to carry, open or concealed.

Basic Pistol
Personal Protection In The Home
Personal Protection Outside The Home

Anyone without these classes under their belt, or equivalent or more advanced classes, has no business with a sidearm on their belt. IMHO

Training, with the appropriate equipment, makes all the difference between success and failure.

A better class resume than the one I listed would be this group of NRA offerings:

Basis Instructor Training (BIT )
Instructor Certified Pistol
Instructor Personal Protection In The Home
Instructor Personal Protection Outside The Home, Basic and Advanced
Range Safety Officer
Chief Range Safety Officer

This would insure you had the knowledge, skills and attitude necessary to safely walk about with a firearm, concealed or open carry, and allow you to safely train others to likewise do so.
That is so restrictive. What about military basic training? What about those who have graduated from police academies? What about MAG-20 classes? What about classes offered by LFI or FSI? There are tons of people out there with better training than this who are carrying firearms. NRA is only one of many many options. And not the best option (at least in my area). A lot of the NRA instructors I've met are cocky quacks who don't even understand our state law.

Yes, training is necessary. If you have none, get some good training from knowledgable people and a reputable organization in your area. A good indicator would be to find where the cops are sending their wives to train for CCP and go there. And if that's the NRA, then hey that's great. Go there. But they aren't the beat all that ends all where training is concerned.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:16 PM   #65
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Delta, you brought up some things I need to consider. Last time I ran the Roger's Range I was running a IWB Milt Sparks from concealment. I hadn't put thought into reactive shooting using the Serpa.

How much was that Safariland and how hard do you think it would be to transition to it? Now I'm wishing I wouldn't have put all those practice hours into the Serpa.

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Old 10-01-2013, 11:01 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911love
Delta, you brought up some things I need to consider. Last time I ran the Roger's Range I was running a IWB Milt Sparks from concealment. I hadn't put thought into reactive shooting using the Serpa.

How much was that Safariland and how hard do you think it would be to transition to it? Now I'm wishing I wouldn't have put all those practice hours into the Serpa.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s_ss_i_0_19?k=safariland+als+concealment+ho lster&sprefix=Safariland+Als+conc

$33-$84

They're easy to use because your thumb is already in place to push the button as you reach for the gun. I can't say how simple the transition would be for you, but a few minutes a day with a red gun or an unloaded and double checked gun would probably suffice.

The add on piece was about $10 extra at the police supply. Not sure what its called but a safariland rep could probably help you out.

In the United States:
Toll-Free Phone: (800) 347-1200
Toll-Free Fax: (800) 366-1669

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Closed 11:30am-12:30pm in all time zones

Training: (800) 347-1200

International Customers:
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:12 PM   #67
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Figured I'd add another holster I use a lot when 1911 carrying.
It's a Desantis holster. Very comfy

img_20131001_190514_229.jpg  
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:45 AM   #68
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Thanks Delta! Looks like I'll be logging more time on the Roger's Range soon. Would you say the holster is suited for CC as well?

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Old 10-02-2013, 02:00 AM   #69
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Tonight's rig
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:05 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911love
Thanks Delta! Looks like I'll be logging more time on the Roger's Range soon. Would you say the holster is suited for CC as well?
It does well with an over shirt or jacket. Doesn't do well at all with a t-shirt or fitted polo. Just like most other OWB holsters. It is a little on the bulky side but I've made it work well by putting it between my 1 and 2 o-clock instead of my 3.
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