Shoot to stop an assailant, not to kill.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:54 PM   #1
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Default Shoot to stop an assailant, not to kill.

Oklahoma City pharmacist found guilty of murder | NewsOK.com
Ersland; the former Pharmicist in OKC who shot a robber 5 times, stopped the threat. He then chased another of the fleeing robbers out of the pharmacy. Afterwards, he returned to the first assailent and executed him with a different gun.
“This defendant made himself judge, jury, executioner,” Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Chance said before a packed courtroom.
And the sad truth is that he did... He took it upon himself to end the life of another human being. The human being was far from innocent of violent crimes; mind you, but no longer posed a threat to Ersland or anyone else nonetheless.
Ersland has just officially joined the ranks of convicted murderers. He won't have the luxery of being executed though. He'll spend the rest of his life rotting in prison with other murderers, rapists, thugs and violent natured individuals. He is an elderly man who will likely not live to see his first parole board. It's a shame too.
He didn't seem like a particulary evil person. He actually brought pictures of his dog to the Court and offered to give the pet to someone that could take care of it. He did this because he finally resigned himself to the fact that he wasn't coming back. He was; at that point, more concerned for the welfare of his beloved animal than he was for himself. Does that sound like someone that would be capable of murder? Not to me but evidently he was. Only because he bought into one seriously flawed fallacy: Shoot to kill. Keep shooting the bad guys until they are dead. If he had his head right before the incident, his anger would not have gotten the better of him. His attitude would not have been so skewed that he would have performed this in front of his own security camera. Shooting to kill had become so ingrained in him that he obviously did not even realize he was doing anything wrong. If the teenager had lived through the robbery he would likely be the one facing a jury instead. If Ersland had not returned to execute the individual on the spot, the assailent would have likely expired anyway.
The difference is inarguable intent. He made his intent known the instant he decide to return his frusteration towards an immobile assailent. At was also at this point that he shamed most other firearms advocates and empowered anti-gun zealots. This is exactly the consequences we can avoid with understanding that gun owners are held to higher standing of moral objectivity. Most of us who carry a weapon had to pass background checks and spend many hours studying before being issued a permit. Some of us may have spent more time standing in line for the ID to be issued than we have actually practiced with our weapons. I am sure I am not that only person who has heard or seen at least one "home defense" weapon that was bought and quickly tossed in the drawer to be forgotten unless it is needed.
I would opine that is not the case for the majority of CCL holders. The majority of us understand some basic concepts before tucking a gun in our holsters. Before carrying a weapon, we must fully understand the damage the weapon can impose. We must commit ourselves to acheiving good and proper proficiency with it. We must harden our mental resolve to the fact that we may have to employ the weapon but only if our lives are threatened. We must know the law and how it is currently being interpreted. It may be up to us to intercede violence among other innocents until authories arrive. We must understand we are not heros or peace officers who are commissioned to apprehend suspects or delve out justice. Most of all we must NOT allow anger to turn our defense into vile, murderous intent. We must understand the difference between shooting to stop the threat at hand and shooting with intent to kill. The latter of which, just made Jerome Ersland into a convicted murderer.
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:13 PM   #2
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Well said, and for anyone who believes in shooting to kill. Make sure you do it before the perp hits the ground or you are in for a world of hurt.

I personally believe in shooting to stop the threat, but I will shoot center mass as many times as it takes to stop that threat. If that means the threat exprires than so be it. However once they are incapacitated they are no longer a threat and should be treated with the highest decency you would treat anyone else who had just been shot... imo

We are not the judge or the jury, it is not our place to judge someone for crimes they have commited. It is only our responsibility to defend our selves and others around us from immediate threat to life and limb. I expect every person who carries to have a higher moral standard than the typical person, especially when dealing with a self defence situation.

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Old 06-23-2011, 07:28 PM   #3
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A truly sad and tragic event.

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Old 06-23-2011, 07:37 PM   #4
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Four shot dead in US pharmacy Haven Drugs robbery | News.com.au
Much sadder event, IMO.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:00 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by orangello View Post
that is why i cant wait for our new ccw/oc law to go in effect!! i dont want to be executed without a chance of at least fighting back. i dont care if it makes the democrats and rino republicans feel better if i am executed without a struggle i want to at least have the chance to do something
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory2 View Post
Well said, and for anyone who believes in shooting to kill. Make sure you do it before the perp hits the ground or you are in for a world of hurt.

I personally believe in shooting to stop the threat, but I will shoot center mass as many times as it takes to stop that threat. If that means the threat exprires than so be it. However once they are incapacitated they are no longer a threat and should be treated with the highest decency you would treat anyone else who had just been shot... imo

We are not the judge or the jury, it is not our place to judge someone for crimes they have commited. It is only our responsibility to defend our selves and others around us from immediate threat to life and limb. I expect every person who carries to have a higher moral standard than the typical person, especially when dealing with a self defence situation.
Even Police Officers cannot shoot to kill. We aim Center of mass to STOP, if the perp dies as a result that is to bad. Swat Snipers or officers may shoot to kill if it is to save a life such as a hostage or a person about to be killed by the perp. But may not shoot after the perp is incapacitated.
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fixxer View Post
I would opine that is not the case for the majority of CCL holders. The majority of us understand some basic concepts before tucking a gun in our holsters. .......... We must know the law and how it is currently being interpreted. ........... We must understand the difference between shooting to stop the threat at hand and shooting with intent to kill. The latter of which, just made Jerome Ersland into a convicted murderer.
I agree with your easement that most folks do have some basic knowledge on the subject and for the most part folks that are interested enough to frequent forums like this one are more informed than the average.

But it is always surprising to me how many folks are willing to get their information from Gecko45 on the Internet, the guy behind the gun store counter or dear ol' Uncle Jim who was a cop but retired in 1976.

I recommend to folks quite often that they spend a couple of hundred dollars and hire a criminal lawyer for an hour just to get their take on local law and interpretations. I have several times and it is some of the best money I have ever spent. If nothing else you'll end up with a pre established relationship and a business card that you can call upon in a hurry if things go south for you.
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wambli View Post
I agree with your easement that most folks do have some basic knowledge on the subject and for the most part folks that are interested enough to frequent forums like this one are more informed than the average.

But it is always surprising to me how many folks are willing to get their information from Gecko45 on the Internet, the guy behind the gun store counter or dear ol' Uncle Jim who was a cop but retired in 1976.

I recommend to folks quite often that they spend a couple of hundred dollars and hire a criminal lawyer for an hour just to get their take on local law and interpretations. I have several times and it is some of the best money I have ever spent. If nothing else you'll end up with a pre established relationship and a business card that you can call upon in a hurry if things go south for you.
That's a great idea. In Kansas we are currently lucky enough to have a sympathetic D.A. and more important; a hard working assistant of his named Patricia Stoneking. "Patty" keeps her ear to the ground for us. She also happens to be President of the KSRA (Kansas State Rifle Association). As KSRA members (and really anybody that cares to ask her), we are able to ask the questions and gain clarification of how the D.A. interprets them via Patty. Afterall, the D.A. is who would be making the call to prosecute someone if deemed necessary. Our CCH policies, training and point of contacts are all through the District Attorney's office. Everything you want to know about how to become a licensed CCW holder, the law as it relates to CCW or even how to become an instructor is available on their website. Patty being a natural liason between the active firearms advocates and the DA is nothing short of extraordanary. I joined the KSRA for that reason, and now I'm looking to see about getting involved with the KSRA Political Action Committee. As far as having a pre established relationship with an Attorney, that is never a bad thing. Getting to know which attorneys are gun friendly in your area is a conversation that cropped up twice this week in my CCW friendly circle. Very good points.
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by armsmaster270 View Post
Even Police Officers cannot shoot to kill. We aim Center of mass to STOP, if the perp dies as a result that is to bad. Swat Snipers or officers may shoot to kill if it is to save a life such as a hostage or a person about to be killed by the perp. But may not shoot after the perp is incapacitated.
Thank you armmaster for some good Law Enforcement perspective. That pretty much jives with what local law enforcement have told me here too. One of my brother in laws is a cop and I pick his brain all the time. (Then I let him play with all my toys, so we're even). He mentioned that they were taught to shoot center mass and evaluate before the next shot(s). It all sounds exactly like what we were taught as Auxillary Security Force in the Military. Center mass, asess, centermass, asess etc. I think Snipers and DM are the only folks they give the green light for head shots with. Even then, it's situatioinally dependant. Maybe the head is the only thing available, bobbling, etc. I dunno. I don't plan on ever getting that sort of training as I don't plan to need it. My need is close quarter threat stopping so that's what I read about and practice for. Just like you said: "Aim Center of mass to STOP, if the perp dies as a result that is to bad."
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:48 AM   #10
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Not sure I understand the controversy here...had the first perp died from the initial wounds there may not have been an arrest let alone a conviction...what did this guy in was coming back and putting another bullet in the guy after he was down. The chain of events leading to the initial shooting was clearly broken and the guy lay dying on the ground, clearly no longer a threat. Does anyone really believe that shoot to kill means that death must be the result of a self defense encounter? If so then I agree they need a refresher course in common sense, shoot to kill simply means don't screw around with warning shots or "winging" the bad guy, put the rounds center mass and drop him...fast and hard...if he dies as a result that's the path he chose when he threatened an armed citizen. Any excessive force can be grounds for prosecution, the key is that you take whatever action is necessary to stop the threath, no more.

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