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Old 06-02-2011, 06:18 PM   #11
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I've seen this video before and would have to agree with the jury, as others have said, not murder but most definitely manslaughter. As I've said on other threads, once a BG is down he's no longer a threat unless he's able to point a firearm in my direction.

I don't believe this guy was even armed, if he was I didn't see him with a gun on the video. No doubt he was an accomplice. as such, I have no problem with him being shot initially, but to come back in and reload or get another gun and execute him was uncalled for.

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Old 06-02-2011, 07:08 PM   #12
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First of all when it comes to robbery suspects and thieves with wepons it is not that I am insensitive I just don't give a Sheet!
When you take the conscious decision to go commit a crime and especially with the use of a weapon. A person could and should expect things couls possiblty go bad. But yes I do think after watching the film that the Clerk went a little overboard. I also realize that adrenalin and maybe some fear was involved. But taking into account his military rank and experience I would assume he would have been a little more in control than the normal citizen? The one thing I noticed that when he came back into the store and evidently went over to get the second weapon. He walked by the suspect on the floor and casually with even his back turned to the person on the floor. Seemed to not have any threat at that point. If an active threat or he had felt severely threatened, seems as though he would have been watching that person and the threat as he moved. I never saw subject number 2 with a weapon. If that is true he was also unarmed? Anyway Manslaughter maybe! But first degree murder is a little excessive regarding reacting to an armed robbery situation. People do not always act rational in these cases.

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Old 06-02-2011, 08:05 PM   #13
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Murder Charges in Oklahoma
Murder is separated into two degrees in Oklahoma, and the definition for each is as follows:

First Degree Murder: A person commits murder in the first degree when that person unlawfully and with malice aforethought causes the death of another human being. Malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a human being, which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof.

There are other inclusions of actions that will lead to a charge of murder in the first degree, and they include:
  • The unintentional killing of a person during the commission of another felony, known as ‘felony murder;’
  • When death occurs by malicious abuse or torture of a child;
  • When death of another person occurs during the manufacturing, distributing or dispensing a controlled substance;
  • When the defendant intentionally causes the death of a law enforcement official during the commission of official duties

Second Degree Murder: When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

Manslaughter Charges in Oklahoma
Manslaughter is also separated into two degrees in Oklahoma, and the basic difference between murder and manslaughter is the requisite intent.

First Degree Manslaughter: Homicide is manslaughter in the first degree in the following cases:
  • When perpetrated without a design to effect death by a person while engaged in the commission of a misdemeanor.
  • When perpetrated without a design to effect death, and in a heat of passion, but in a cruel and unusual manner, or by means of a dangerous weapon; unless it is committed under such circumstances as constitute excusable or justifiable homicide.
  • When perpetrated unnecessarily either while resisting an attempt by the person killed to commit a crime, or after such attempt shall have failed.

Second Degree Manslaughter: Every killing of one human being by the act, procurement or culpable negligence of another, which, under the provisions of this chapter, is not murder, nor manslaughter in the first degree, nor excusable nor justifiable homicide, is manslaughter in the second degree.
Source: Murder Homicide Criminal Defense Oklahoma, Murder, Second Degree Murder and Homicide
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:10 PM   #14
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Manslaughter wouldn't work because you would have to demonstrate that he didn't intend to kill him only to harm him.

Murder in the 2nd works much better. I think you could make a good argument around his state of mind and what defines "premeditated". Every act, just prior to it being comitted is "premeditated". So, it's wholly unfair to act as if him reloading or getting another gun was premeditated.

You can say that his actions were "imminently dangerous to another person and evincing (evidence of) a depraved mind (disregard to human life)", but I don't think you can argue that he acted "with malice aforethought" (premeditated). He didn't know these boys from Adam until that moment.

He got the gun because he was still potentially in danger. He shot the guy becuase he acted without a care for that person's life. Murder 2.

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Old 06-03-2011, 01:44 AM   #15
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Manslaughter wouldn't work because you would have to demonstrate that he didn't intend to kill him only to harm him.

Murder in the 2nd works much better. I think you could make a good argument around his state of mind and what defines "premeditated". Every act, just prior to it being comitted is "premeditated". So, it's wholly unfair to act as if him reloading or getting another gun was premeditated.

You can say that his actions were "imminently dangerous to another person and evincing (evidence of) a depraved mind (disregard to human life)", but I don't think you can argue that he acted "with malice aforethought" (premeditated). He didn't know these boys from Adam until that moment.

He got the gun because he was still potentially in danger. He shot the guy becuase he acted without a care for that person's life. Murder 2.
I'm not sure about Oklahoma's criminal code, but Alabama doesn't have a 2nd degree for murder. If Oklahoma has a 2nd degree murder and it fits with what you've said I'd agree with you.

I guess the prosecution was looking at the fact that the deceased was down and the shop owner didn't seem to think he was a threat when he passed him by to chase the 1st robber. Also, I didn't see the deceased with a gun in a video I saw of this incident. If so, I'm sure that played heavily against the defense as it would be a pretty big stretch to claim you were in fear of an unarmed individual who was down.
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Old 06-03-2011, 01:47 AM   #16
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^^^I didn't see this post when I replied to your last, yep I'd go with murder 2nd.
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:18 AM   #17
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It looked to me like by the time the Pharmacist got another gun and finished the perp off, he could have had the cops there to take him away. Does not look good for the Pharmacist. Looks like he turned from victim to vigilante.

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Old 06-08-2011, 07:21 PM   #18
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He should have gotten rid of the video...
Then there would have been a bit different perception.

Of course bullet holes in the floor with blood and vital organ pieces probably would have told the story.

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Old 06-09-2011, 01:26 AM   #19
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Defense is fight or flight, in this case when he came back in to the store there was no fight or flight choice left to be made. If the guy on the ground was still a threat he wouldn't have stepped over him to go get another firearm or more ammo. IMHO he ws pizzed and came back to finish the DB off. That is murder in front of his own survalance camera. Another thought I had is this guy is a military vet and should have a reasonable understanding of when a threat is no longer a threat. THe BG got what he had coming and would have likely bled out with out the extra effort.

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Old 06-17-2011, 01:16 AM   #20
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im with the manslaughter charge. unless that kid was still shooting that pharmacist should not have gone back over and unloaded on him. heres where PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE comes into play. if that pharmacist had takin him out with one shot to the dome, he would be at work today, with nothing more than a stain on the floor. now the dude who is educated, pays his taxes, and supported a family, is behind bars with criminals.

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