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Old 12-07-2012, 11:51 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canebrake View Post
Read this before you decide to carry!

Note to ALL: This is a canebrake process and in no way to be taken as a "MUST FOLLOW" set of instructions to be followed by the sheeple herd or other Nancy Boys engaged in interwebz flaming. This is not a FireArmsTalk.com endorsed or condoned doctrine. It is however, a philosophy applied by this 66 year old gun totin' codger that has served him well.

Regardless of whether justified or not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

If you are involved in a shooting and are the survivor, this is the canebrake MUST DO:

During the first second of post-shooting quiet, do a tactical reload and store the ejected, but not yet empty mag in a convenient pocket, DO NOT put it in your mag pouch! This will prevent you from grabbing it later thinking its fresh. During this reload do a 360 sweep clearing the area for additional BGs.

Draw down on the Bad Guy's center mass and watch his hands as you approach. Hands kill! Everything else is just a distraction! Clear the Tango of any weapons and make sure he is no longer a threat. DO NOT shoot again unless he moves at you. By this time you will more than likely be on someone's candid camera!

If the Tango is no longer a threat, safe and holster your weapon. The officers responding have no idea what has happened, won't know who the good guy is, won't know who the bad guy is, and if they find you standing over a body with a gun in your hand you're likely to get a bad reaction.

While keeping a safe distance, stay alert! This guy was trying to kill you just minutes ago! Continue your 360 sweeps for any BG’s that may show up! Start yelling "CALL 911! CALL EMS!". DO THIS until someone confirms they have called!

If you are alone, use your cell phone to call 911 and tell them "There has been a shooting at **your location**, get here fast!" and say nothing more. Do Not hang up and set the phone down while still connected to the 911 operator allowing then to find you. Do not speak to anyone, frequently visually clear the area for BGs and wait until the police/EMS arrives. When the first responders arrive, hurry them to the Tango to provide assistance. I don't care a rat's bottom about the Tango but what I do care about is having the first responder put in his report that when he rolled up on the scene that I was trying to save the Tango’s life! That single statement in his report will show contrition on my part and instantly protect me from a prosecutor trying to portray me as the CCW permit holder and a blood-thirsty vigilante.

When asked by the police the only thing you EVER say is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please let me speak with my attorney. I assure you that you will have my full cooperation after I consult with my attorney."

You will need to surrender your identification, CCW license and weapon. With this completed, request to be released to return home, you’re about to be sick. If everything is in order they should return your ID and CCWL and let you go. With the exception of yes or no answers to ID questions or to point out the location of the Tango's weapon, DO NOT answer any other questions! You have invoked the attorney card and are not required to speak to them. You are upset, sick and want to go home! By now they have run and verified your info, know where you live and should let you go.

If the police persist with questioning you do have an option. If you are convinced they intend to run you through the grinder tell them you are so upset that you are having chest pains. (You may actually be having chest pains.) They will have to send you to the hospital and admit you to intensive care, probably for 24 hours. You cannot be questioned further and certainly not in intensive care. You will then have time to THINK, gather your composure and visit with your lawyer. This will also be part of your record as to how upset and afraid you really were.

Remember it is the LEO's job to produce evidence, he is not your friend and anything you say can be used against you. Keep your mouth shut!

Be sure you have a lawyer prior to carrying. Call the attorney now. If it's late, you will probably get a service or machine. Go on record then, do not wait until you can speak to him in person and leave this message; "This is (You) and I require your services for a shooting I was involved in." NEVER (did I say never?) say you shot somebody, not to anyone other than your retained lawyer and not even to him on the phone.

If you re-read the above you will notice you have NOT once said you shot your gun much less the Tango. You have not lied but more importantly, you have not provided the Tango's legal defense team anything they can run with. This is very important. Invoke the attorney card and say nothing, even when questioned about you gun being fully loaded. You are not required to! Keep saying, "I'm sick and need to go home."


CCW is what I perceive to be the most personally responsible decision I have made third only to my wedding vows and active service to this great country. Concealed carry is NOT playing cowboys and indians (pardon my age tell) and I’m afraid that’s exactly what many are doing today. When we post encounters as entertainment rather than a positive outcome from our correct decisions we only feed to a “Denny Crain” type response.

When you decide to carry a concealed weapon, you have burdened yourself with tremendous responsibilities including, but not limited to, physical fitness, firearm and CQB training, in-depth knowledge and handling skills of your weapon of choice and the moral obligation that the issuing authority extracts from you when you applied for the CCW license.

When your 'go criteria' are met, you MUST draw your concealed carry and if nothing else has changed, it’s not time to talk, it's time to use the deadly force you have trained to render. If that reaction isn’t one smooth ‘muscle memory’, you’re dead! PLEASE NOTICE: I did not say if you draw you must shoot. That’s why I included the “CHANGE” caveat because if the BG turned and ran I would clear the area and then reholster.

I would also report the incidence to the local police/county sheriff. This gives them a heads-up on the BG in their area and protects me for going non-concealed. Brandishing, here in South Florida, is prosecuted harshly to control the gangsters and road rage.

There is no fun in concealed carry; it’s a profession that must be executed by professionals. If you do not embrace this school of thought, you have no business being armed. If you don't embrace this, it is my fear that I or my loved ones could become part of your collateral damage.

I need to emphasize the gravity of this carry decision with these two points;

A. Use your head (your most powerful weapon) and only draw and fire your weapon to save you or someone’s life. This is the only righteous shooting. Anything else will find you in a cage or a box. Long before you put yourself in the ‘shoot’ position, you better have completed all the legal requirements that allow you to be there. In addition you must complete the following personal conditions;

[*]Training,[*]Understand and accept the moral obligation that the issuing authority extracts from you when you applied for the CCW license,[*]Training,[*]The moral mettle to take a life,[*]Training,[*]Know and keep up on the laws covering carry in the location you are armed (political boundaries and building restrictions),[*]Training,[*]At a bare minimum have a gun rights lawyer’s phone number on your cell’s speed dial,[*]Training,[*]Retain that lawyer if you can afford it,[*]and did I mention training?

B. See A or you will get yourself killed!

We are neither a vigilante nor a hired gun, just a survivalist.
Excellent read, Thank You!!!!

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Old 12-09-2012, 03:16 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canebrake View Post
Did you read?

Draw down on the Bad Guy's center mass and watch his hands as you approach. Hands kill! Everything else is just a distraction! Clear the Tango of any weapons and make sure he is no longer a threat. DO NOT shoot again unless he moves at you. By this time you will more than likely be on someone's candid camera!

If the Tango is no longer a threat, safe and holster your weapon. The officers responding have no idea what has happened, won't know who the good guy is, won't know who the bad guy is, and if they find you standing over a body with a gun in your hand you're likely to get a bad reaction.

While keeping a safe distance, stay alert! This guy was trying to kill you just minutes ago! Continue your 360 sweeps for any BG’s that may show up!


What's your issue?
My issue is the "approach." There is no quicker way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory than to approach the perp.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:31 AM   #53
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Default Just curious...

Interesting post, canebrake, but I have a couple questions:

1) How many "Tangos" were legally shot by civilians in the U.S. this past year (Trayvon Martin excluded), and where can this data be found?

2) Have you personally ever shot a Tango?

I think it's interesting to note that my hero, Mister Motor City himself, Ted Nugent, habitually packs heat and talks about the day when he'll have the opportunity to bag a Tango himself. Yet apparently the only person he came close to shooting was himself when his .45 went off accidentally in his pants (which he writes about in his rock 'em sock 'em autobiography).

Looking forward to hearing from you....

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Old 12-26-2012, 02:48 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canebrake View Post
Read this before you decide to carry!

Note to ALL: This is a canebrake process and in no way to be taken as a "MUST FOLLOW" set of instructions to be followed by the sheeple herd or other Nancy Boys engaged in interwebz flaming. This is not a FireArmsTalk.com endorsed or condoned doctrine. It is however, a philosophy applied by this 66 year old gun totin' codger that has served him well.

Regardless of whether justified or not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

If you are involved in a shooting and are the survivor, this is the canebrake MUST DO:

During the first second of post-shooting quiet, do a tactical reload and store the ejected, but not yet empty mag in a convenient pocket, DO NOT put it in your mag pouch! This will prevent you from grabbing it later thinking its fresh. During this reload do a 360 sweep clearing the area for additional BGs.

Draw down on the Bad Guy's center mass and watch his hands as you approach. Hands kill! Everything else is just a distraction! Clear the Tango of any weapons and make sure he is no longer a threat. DO NOT shoot again unless he moves at you. By this time you will more than likely be on someone's candid camera!

If the Tango is no longer a threat, safe and holster your weapon. The officers responding have no idea what has happened, won't know who the good guy is, won't know who the bad guy is, and if they find you standing over a body with a gun in your hand you're likely to get a bad reaction.

While keeping a safe distance, stay alert! This guy was trying to kill you just minutes ago! Continue your 360 sweeps for any BG’s that may show up! Start yelling "CALL 911! CALL EMS!". DO THIS until someone confirms they have called!

If you are alone, use your cell phone to call 911 and tell them "There has been a shooting at **your location**, get here fast!" and say nothing more. Do Not hang up and set the phone down while still connected to the 911 operator allowing then to find you. Do not speak to anyone, frequently visually clear the area for BGs and wait until the police/EMS arrives. When the first responders arrive, hurry them to the Tango to provide assistance. I don't care a rat's bottom about the Tango but what I do care about is having the first responder put in his report that when he rolled up on the scene that I was trying to save the Tango’s life! That single statement in his report will show contrition on my part and instantly protect me from a prosecutor trying to portray me as the CCW permit holder and a blood-thirsty vigilante.

When asked by the police the only thing you EVER say is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please let me speak with my attorney. I assure you that you will have my full cooperation after I consult with my attorney."

You will need to surrender your identification, CCW license and weapon. With this completed, request to be released to return home, you’re about to be sick. If everything is in order they should return your ID and CCWL and let you go. With the exception of yes or no answers to ID questions or to point out the location of the Tango's weapon, DO NOT answer any other questions! You have invoked the attorney card and are not required to speak to them. You are upset, sick and want to go home! By now they have run and verified your info, know where you live and should let you go.
If the police persist with questioning you do have an option. If you are convinced they intend to run you through the grinder tell them you are so upset that you are having chest pains. (You may actually be having chest pains.) They will have to send you to the hospital and admit you to intensive care, probably for 24 hours. You cannot be questioned further and certainly not in intensive care. You will then have time to THINK, gather your composure and visit with your lawyer. This will also be part of your record as to how upset and afraid you really were.
Remember it is the LEO's job to produce evidence, he is not your friend and anything you say can be used against you. Keep your mouth shut!

Be sure you have a lawyer prior to carrying. Call the attorney now. If it's late, you will probably get a service or machine. Go on record then, do not wait until you can speak to him in person and leave this message; "This is (You) and I require your services for a shooting I was involved in." NEVER (did I say never?) say you shot somebody, not to anyone other than your retained lawyer and not even to him on the phone.

If you re-read the above you will notice you have NOT once said you shot your gun much less the Tango. You have not lied but more importantly, you have not provided the Tango's legal defense team anything they can run with. This is very important. Invoke the attorney card and say nothing, even when questioned about you gun being fully loaded. You are not required to! Keep saying, "I'm sick and need to go home."



CCW is what I perceive to be the most personally responsible decision I have made third only to my wedding vows and active service to this great country. Concealed carry is NOT playing cowboys and indians (pardon my age tell) and I’m afraid that’s exactly what many are doing today. When we post encounters as entertainment rather than a positive outcome from our correct decisions we only feed to a “Denny Crain” type response.

When you decide to carry a concealed weapon, you have burdened yourself with tremendous responsibilities including, but not limited to, physical fitness, firearm and CQB training, in-depth knowledge and handling skills of your weapon of choice and the moral obligation that the issuing authority extracts from you when you applied for the CCW license.

When your 'go criteria' are met, you MUST draw your concealed carry and if nothing else has changed, it’s not time to talk, it's time to use the deadly force you have trained to render. If that reaction isn’t one smooth ‘muscle memory’, you’re dead! PLEASE NOTICE: I did not say if you draw you must shoot. That’s why I included the “CHANGE” caveat because if the BG turned and ran I would clear the area and then reholster.

I would also report the incidence to the local police/county sheriff. This gives them a heads-up on the BG in their area and protects me for going non-concealed. Brandishing, here in South Florida, is prosecuted harshly to control the gangsters and road rage.

There is no fun in concealed carry; it’s a profession that must be executed by professionals. If you do not embrace this school of thought, you have no business being armed. If you don't embrace this, it is my fear that I or my loved ones could become part of your collateral damage.

I need to emphasize the gravity of this carry decision with these two points;

A. Use your head (your most powerful weapon) and only draw and fire your weapon to save you or someone’s life. This is the only righteous shooting. Anything else will find you in a cage or a box. Long before you put yourself in the ‘shoot’ position, you better have completed all the legal requirements that allow you to be there. In addition you must complete the following personal conditions;
  1. Training,
  2. Understand and accept the moral obligation that the issuing authority extracts from you when you applied for the CCW license,
  3. Training,
  4. The moral mettle to take a life,
  5. Training,
  6. Know and keep up on the laws covering carry in the location you are armed (political boundaries and building restrictions),
  7. Training,
  8. At a bare minimum have a gun rights lawyer’s phone number on your cell’s speed dial,
  9. Training,
  10. Retain that lawyer if you can afford it,
  11. and did I mention training?
B. See A or you will get yourself killed!

We are neither a vigilante nor a hired gun, just a survivalist.
Interesting post, canebrake, but I have a couple questions:

1) How many "Tangos" were legally shot by civilians in the U.S. this past year (Trayvon Martin excluded), and where can this data be found?

2) Have you personally ever shot a Tango?

I think it's interesting to note that my hero, Mister Motor City himself, Ted Nugent, habitually packs heat and talks about the day when he'll have the opportunity to bag a Tango. Yet apparently the only person he came close to shooting was himself when his .45 went off accidentally in his pants (which he writes about in his rock 'em sock 'em autobiography).

Looking forward to hearing from you....
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:56 PM   #55
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The OP was correct across the board. The only thing I would add is, when you select an attorney, select someone who has tried firearm cases. All lawyers are not created equal. Just as you would not want a proctolgist to do your brain surgery,(though sometimes that might work....) you don't want an attorney who's practice is mainly in civil law, fighting for your life. He or she may be great at trusts, wills, DUI or divorce and have not clue how to defend a gun case. What he doesn't know might cost you your freedom.

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Old 12-28-2012, 08:34 PM   #56
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NFP17...

Reading your posts...forgive me if I'm wrong...but you sound a bit young?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you either don't carry, or just recently started, and have never seved in an armed capacity...IE, military or LEO.

FYI...asking a person you don't know if they've shot or killed another human being is extremely bad form for 2 reasons.

1. Those who have do not share the experience with there closest friends...and certainly not with people on the internet.

2. Too many of those who have not...wish to sound like they have...why, I don't know, but Internet commando's are everywhere.

Your question about the number of criminals put down by there intended victims is valid and I would love to see those stats myself. Your question about whether or not Cane has been forced to take a life is NOT valid...and in my humble opinion...quite rude.

Not trying to beat you up or offend you. I just noticed your a new member here and I can guarantee this gentle etiquette lesson will serve you well...if heeded.

Tack

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Old 12-29-2012, 03:43 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1
NFP17...

Reading your posts...forgive me if I'm wrong...but you sound a bit young?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you either don't carry, or just recently started, and have never seved in an armed capacity...IE, military or LEO.

FYI...asking a person you don't know if they've shot or killed another human being is extremely bad form for 2 reasons.

1. Those who have do not share the experience with there closest friends...and certainly not with people on the internet.

2. Too many of those who have not...wish to sound like they have...why, I don't know, but Internet commando's are everywhere.

Your question about the number of criminals put down by there intended victims is valid and I would love to see those stats myself. Your question about whether or not Cane has been forced to take a life is NOT valid...and in my humble opinion...quite rude.

Not trying to beat you up or offend you. I just noticed your a new member here and I can guarantee this gentle etiquette lesson will serve you well...if heeded.

Tack
Tackelberry1,

Well said and great advice.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:48 AM   #58
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Default Outstanding!!

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Old 12-29-2012, 08:24 AM   #59
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Ted Nugent is your hero?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentForPresident17 View Post
Interesting post, canebrake, but I have a couple questions:

1) How many "Tangos" were legally shot by civilians in the U.S. this past year (Trayvon Martin excluded), and where can this data be found?

2) Have you personally ever shot a Tango?

I think it's interesting to note that my hero, Mister Motor City himself, Ted Nugent, habitually packs heat and talks about the day when he'll have the opportunity to bag a Tango. Yet apparently the only person he came close to shooting was himself when his .45 went off accidentally in his pants (which he writes about in his rock 'em sock 'em autobiography).

Looking forward to hearing from you....
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:59 AM   #60
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Cane,
Thanks for the effort you put into your post. It's excellent stuff to consider.
And others - especially Capo for providing retired Police Chief's working opinion inputs.
My ccw training has covered most of this, as well as the required reasons for any use of force action. It is good, though to review and rethink - often.
But Cane, it's obvious that you have put a lot of thought into the process - even to help people obtain competent legal assistance.
Thanks for that.

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