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Old 12-31-2009, 04:14 PM   #11
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There's also the Ruger SP101, the LCR's big brother, chambered in .357 magnum. Don't know how the trigger is, but I'm told it can fire loads just as hot, if not hotter than a comparable S&W with no harm done.

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Old 01-01-2010, 04:20 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by treehugger49 View Post
If you're looking at the Kel-Tec P-3AT, take a look at the Ruger LCP. They are almost identical, but most agree the fit and finish of the Ruger is superior to the Kel-Tec. Gun Tests magazine recently did a head-to-head evaluation of both pistols and gave the nod to the LCP.

They are now back in supply, and the going rate is about $309.

I like both of them but they are very, very small in my hand and I am not sure that I want to spend the money on something that I am not sure that I will carry because it is comfortable for me to shoot. I have been looking at getting a Kahr PM9 but am not looking forward to the price tag on that one.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:45 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Phelenwolf View Post

I like both of them but they are very, very small in my hand and I am not sure that I want to spend the money on something that I am not sure that I will carry because it is comfortable for me to shoot. I have been looking at getting a Kahr PM9 but am not looking forward to the price tag on that one.
True enough, neither the -3AT nor the LCP is particularly comfortable to shoot. But remember, it is a carry pistol, not a range gun. Fire it enough to become proficient, and take something else for your major range time.

BTW, I'm not advocating that either is the best choice for a carry pistol - I personally carry an XD-40, but the OP specified something in the pocket pistol variety that would be easier to conceal.
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Old 01-10-2010, 12:52 AM   #14
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My advice would to get a Glock 26 and keep it forever. Its a small gun that's easily concealed and shoots a capable round. If you're not familar with Glocks, check out the Glock forum here on firearmstalk.com.

Glocks are very popular for a reason. They just flat out WORK!

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Old 01-11-2010, 02:26 PM   #15
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Carry the largest gun you can!!!

I am 6' tall and weigh like 145 pounds (skinny), and I carry my full-sized Taurus PT92 all the time. The only place it can go without being obvious is inside my waist band (with a holster), right at about 12:30 (muzzle on the right side of my junk), with the muzzle facing to the right. At first it wasn't super comfortable but now I find myself going long periods of time and forgetting I have it.


Now, if you really don't think you would carry anything larger than a wallet, then yeah you are going to have to get one of those micro pistols. The first rule to winning a gun fight is to have a gun. However, if I am in a gas station looking at candy and some nutjob runs in with a shotgun, I'll be glad I've got 18 rounds instead of 7 or 8, I'll be glad I can put two rounds on target in the time I could put one with the pocket pistol, and I'll be glad Ill have a pistol with which I could put a round between his eyes from across the store if I had to.


I chose 9mm because, statistically, a the best .45 bullet has about a 5% greater chance of a one-shot-stop than the best 9mm. However, a full-sized .45 might carry 12+1 rounds of ammo, vs 17+1 for a typical full-sized 9mm. So, you lose 5% potential effectiveness per round, while gaining almost 40% more capacity by going to 9mm. That is not counting the obviously reduced recoil allowing faster follow-up shots. If you can put 3 rounds on target with a 9mm in the same time you can put two shots with a .45, you are much more lethal with the 9mm***.

The Second Rule to Winning a Gunfight is to Hit Your Target!

***This does apply to smaller firearms, as well. If you are definitely going to get a subcompact pistol, don't immediately discount the smaller calibers. Yeah, they will be less effective. But if you can put 4 rounds of .32acp into the face of an attacker before you can put two rounds of 9mm into their chest, go with the .32! Hell, my GF is tiny and I have considered getting her a .22lr Bobcat for that very reason. She loved shooting my grandad's Bobcat, but shot one round from his .32acp pocket pistol, and immediately handed it back! She doesn't have the testosterone to "man through the pain," and I can't force her to practice something she doesn't like. So, if I had the choice between her shooting 100 rounds of .22lr a weekend for practice, vs gritting her teeth through one magazine of .32acp a month, I'll choose the former every time.




And btw, don't get an NAA. The only consistently way to use a rimfire firearm for self defense with a reasonable likelihood of success is rapid fire. The tiny grip and single-action nature of the Minis are hardly condusive to that. Hell, even if it was a full-sized revolver, single-action these days is for target shooting or hunting.
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:30 PM   #16
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I chose 9mm because, statistically, a the best .45 bullet has about a 5% greater chance of a one-shot-stop than the best 9mm.
You have any information that actually backs this broad statement up??


Because any study is going to be flawed, since they didn't start clocking single shot stops until WELL AFTER both rounds were on the market.

And then I would ask, even at 5% greater chance of a one-stop shot, who shoots one time??

What is the collective "leaking flesh factor" of 2 or 6 .45 caliber projectiles versus 2 or 6 9mm projectiles??

Then we get into the whole "what does the round do when it hits the body" factor in relation to fluid shock.

Bigger bullet = equals bigger shock to the system.

When the question of 9mm versus .45 comes up, a good counter question is:

"Which would you rather be shot with?"

JD
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Old 01-11-2010, 11:03 PM   #17
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I do have information to back up that statement. Im on my phone right now, however, so I will have to post it later. I thought most everyone had seen tis data, which is why I didn't post it originally.

With the same number of rounds, of course the larger one is going to do more tissue damage. Though, obviously the numberof shots one can put on target in a limited amount of time is inversely proportional to the amount of control tha shooter has. If someone ca put 3 9mm on target in the same time he could put two .45s, then that shooter is more effective with the 9mm. Also, at handgun velocities the amount of "shock" applied to human tissue is irrelevant as it will cause no additional tissue destruction. Thus, it only comes down to how much tissue can be directly damaged by contact with your bullets, which is based on the total wound volume of all wound tracts.

But, Im not here to argue .45 vs 9mm. I was only saying why I personally didn't go larger (among other reasons like ammo costs and that I owned a 9mm carbine at the time of purchase).

BTW, Id rather get shot by the least skilled shooter. With any common defensive handgun caliber, the absolute most important aspect is shot placement. A hit in the heart with a .22 will trump a hit to the shoulder or gut with a .45 every time.

Long story short, carry the largest handgun in the larges caliber you can control. Remember there is a balance. Don't go buy an 8" Raging bull and carry it 20 days a year. But don't buy a mini revolver if you think you can stand the size of a larger handgun, and/or can still control the recoil of a larger round.

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Old 01-11-2010, 11:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindenwood View Post
I do have information to back up that statement. Im on my phone right now, however, so I will have to post it later. I thought most everyone had seen tis data, which is why I didn't post it originally.
There is an extensive study that was done by one of our own members in the Knowledge Base that tells of many handgun encounters.

The problem is, the study of "1 Stop Shot" is relatively new.

The .45 ACP cartridge has been around since 1894-1895. It has been in military service since 1911.

The 9x19 round has been around since like 1902 and has been in service since shortly there after.

Neither round was measured for one stop shooting from it's inception. Nor were individual body counts measured.

So, any amount of studying today is not conclusive. It does not take into account upswings in usage, like wars for the US military in .45 ACP, or massive purchases and deployment like the 9x19mm in world wide police and military service.

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With the same number of rounds, of course the larger one is going to do more tissue damage.
On this we completely agree.

Quote:
Though, obviously the number of shots one can put on target in a limited amount of time is inversely proportional to the amount of control tha shooter has.
On the surface, we would agree. However, I would pose that the amount of ammo a shooter can put on target is directly related to how much practice a shooter has under their belt, regardless of weapon.

Take a civilian shooter and teach them how to shoot with any SPECIFIC pellet gun or even a .22 pistol or rifle. Take someone from an advanced school, a master shooter, an operator, or someone that just shoots for the love of shooting and give them the same weapon, cold, and they will outshoot the person you trained with that weapon.

Why? They have more experience in shooting. Period. Therefor, the weapon becomes an extension of the shooter.

Quote:
If someone ca put 3 9mm on target in the same time he could put two .45s, then that shooter is more effective with the 9mm.
A large round does more damage. More damage equals more blood loss.

Now, one of the big advantages of the 9mm is higher round capacity. One of the big downfalls of the 9mm is the fast rate of travel and limited expansion of the round in human tissue at short, pistol fighting ranges.

Quote:
Also, at handgun velocities the amount of "shock" applied to human tissue is irrelevant as it will cause no additional tissue destruction.
We are COMPLETELY at odds on this one. Hydrostatic shock is very real.

One of our members here, IGETEVEN, has a very real world understanding of this phenomenon and I am hoping he stops by as he has held court on this issue time and again and I would NEVER presume to know more on the subject than he does.

Quote:
Long story short, carry the largest handgun in the largest caliber you can control. Remember there is a balance. Don't go buy an 8" Raging bull and carry it 20 days a year. But don't buy a mini revolver if you think you can stand the size of a larger handgun, and/or can still control the recoil of a larger round.
On this we totally agree. However, given a lot of criteria, one of which being what part of the world you live in, dictates that some rounds are far more effective across a broader range of situations over others.

But an armed person, with even a knife, is a FAR BETTER situation than a person that is merely caught off guard and has no weapon nearby.

JD
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:15 AM   #19
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9mm, 91%:
9 mm +P+ Stopping Power

.45acp, 96%
45 ACP Stopping Power


Any data that is not new or is related to the military is irrelevant. Until maybe the last couple decades, bullet technology was not such that consistent and reliable expansion could be essentially guaranteed. And in the military, only ball ammo is used and is thus not related to the ammo any of us would use for defensive purposes.

Quote:
A large round does more damage. More damage equals more blood loss.
More accurately, greater wound volume does more tissue damage. More tissue damage equals more blood loss. Three premium 9mm rounds will create greater wound volume and thus more tissue damage than two premium .45acp rounds. I am not going to start the phagillionth 9mm vs .45 debate. I am just saying don't automatically assume having a bigger round in the magazine will make you wholly more effective against a threat (waaay behind shot placement, is total wound volume).



I also never said hydrostatic shock was not real. I said at the velocities of defensive handgun rounds, its effects are not significant enough to count on for consistent incapacitation of a target.


Quote:
Quote:
Long story short, carry the largest handgun in the largest caliber you can control. Remember there is a balance. Don't go buy an 8" Raging bull and carry it 20 days a year. But don't buy a mini revolver if you think you can stand the size of a larger handgun, and/or can still control the recoil of a larger round.
On this we totally agree. However, given a lot of criteria, one of which being what part of the world you live in, dictates that some rounds are far more effective across a broader range of situations over others.
Good, that was my point .




I also agree that as far as general pistol shooting goes, practice makes perfect. However, he wants something which he can use now, and a compact .45 (assuming he is not going to jump all the way from wanting a .22lr mini revolver to a 3lb 1911, heh) is probably not the best place to start in handgun training. He should get something he is comfortable with now (since he is wanting something to carry now), not something that is best based on numbers. If he isn't sure he can handle a compact .45 or .357, he shouldn't get one and think the caliber is going to save his ass while he makes nothing but peripheral hits to his attacker (if he can even get the muzzle back on target fast enough to take more than one shot--I don't know his personal skill level).

OP:
Get the largest handgun you can stand to carry consistently, as this will generally in all aspects of pistol wielding (recoil control, muzzle velocity, sight radius, steadiness, etc), regardless of caliber. Then, chose a caliber that makes the best (for you) compromise between control and wound volume. For me, that compromise was the 9mm. For a bigger guy or someone with much more (focused) shooting experience (this was my first and still only pistol), a larger caliber (.45acp, skip the .40 IMO) might prove worthwhile. For a newer shooter, or someone who is smaller or more recoil sensitive (and I mean if the recoil is distracting the shooter from focusing on the basics, not if the recoil is causing the shooter discomfort), going with a smaller caliber will allow him or her to more easily and quickly gain a decent level of proficiency.

Shot Placement Is Everything! Get something with which you can put the lead where it needs to go, and you won't have a problem (using a reasonable caliber, like at least .32acp FMJ or something)! That means get something both physically large enough that you can accurately aim it, and of low enough (enough, not the lowest possible) recoil that you can both control it and will want to practice with it.

And, of course, practice until you can handle something closer to what you want (if you want to upgrade, if not that's fine too). That might mean the same caliber in a smaller handgun that is more comfortable for you to carry. Or that might mean the same size handgun but in a larger caliber that is going to be more effective. Then practice with that until you get as good with it as you were with your first handgun.
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Old 01-12-2010, 04:15 AM   #20
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Hmmm...do I sense a caliber debate coming on...

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