open carry in a theatre got dude hassled, court says he was OK, hassle bad. - Page 2
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:49 AM   #11
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The other side of the coin.

If the guy went on a rampage with the firearm and the theater manager hadn't called the PD imagine the news report. I fully understand the right to open carry but with doing so comes this kind of an issue. While I am pro 2A and conseal carry all the time, I wouldn't be comfrontable if I was settling in to watch a movie with my family and saw a guy with a gun open carry. I would be watching him the whole time and not the movie. Just because the guy is carring in the open wouldn't put me at ease with the expectation he is a good guy expressing his 2A. He could just as well a nut job with something to prove.

Get a consealed carry license/premit and let all enjoy the movie with out concern. If you feel the need to open carry expect this kind of attention. And to sue seems weak, if it wasn't about the money as his friend suggested I would expect to read a follow up where he donated the money to a charity. I won't be looking for the follow up article because it was about the money.

Asking the police department to appoligize for what? They did there job and getting him on his way in an hour seems pretty rerasonable. An hour in his life is worth 22k, and expressing he ONLY got 6k and the lawyer got the rest is a great expression of the bottom feeding Lawyers making a case out of nothing. I expect the city or county determined that it would cost double the settlement amount to defend the city/county position and just paid. That is where the bottom feeding Lawyers make there money and some slack jaw gets a payday he doesn't deserve and didn't earn.

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Old 10-07-2009, 07:39 AM   #12
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If I called the police I wouldn't be toting a firearm when they get there. It is legal, but it also puts them on edge even more.
I realy had no choice, but the keep this guy a gunpoint untill the PD arrived. I holstered my weapon after they rolled out of the vehicles, but that was not good enugh for them.

I had a long talk with the cheif, and they are all aware of the laws, + the fact that I carry.

I grew up in a PD enviroment, and some times take that for granted. I would have become an officer, but the pay is way to low. I gotta live, and keep my kids fed. I work for a PD, but not an officer. The local PD knows that now, and it has changed their outlook on me carrying a weapon.
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:48 PM   #13
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+1 WDB.


Grease, As for the Cop's asking you for your gun or what ever they did, (your did not tell use that). I can see their side very clear. I roll up to a call and have one person on the ground and a second holding a gun. What one is the bad gay? Is the person with the gun legally possession the gun? Is he a crazy that I now have to worry about shooting me or the possible suspect because of something the suspect does or says? If you like it or not most Cop's are in favor of the carry laws, but that does not mean we want a civilian standing behind us with a gun. We have our own guns and most of the time do not need yours also involved. That just makes more guns we have to worry about the bad gay getting a hold of.

If you legally possess the gun, hand it over to the Cop's, once they are done with there stuff you will get it back (barring you did not break any laws with it). What do you have to worry about with handing your gun over if you legally posses it.

Sorry man but no matter how hard you tell me you have the right to have the gun, you are either handing it over to me, going back in your house or putting the gun some place and staying away from it. My life is way more valuable then you having your gun on you.

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Old 10-08-2009, 07:50 AM   #14
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NO don't get me wrong. I understand completely, and it all has to do with how that is handled, and the attitude an officer takes. It's situational, and on the officer, and myself.
If I had been waving a gun around, or in some way being unsafe, being beelidgerant, and the officer not know me. This little town is 2sq miles, and there are 9 officers including the cheif. I have lived here 27yrs, and bend over backward to help the police in my little corner of the universe.
That said....
The officer shows up, gets out, and starts barking at me about holding someone at gunpoint. Tells me to give hime my Fing gun, and that I am going to jail. His words were to the tune of (He didn't Fing care who was right or wrong.) My reply could have been better, but it is what it is. I was ticked off by the tone & attitude by that time. I replied to him that he was more than welcome to take the tresspassin fella, and remove himself from my property. I told him that I would only hand my weapon over to the cheif, and that acting irate that I wasn't so sure he needed his weapon either. It was a huge mess, but I felt that I had been wronged by the officer, especially seeing as how he knows that I'm the owner, and called in the attempted break in. I was actually starting to feel threatened by this officer. The cheif was called in by the second officer, who seemed to be very suprised by the actions of the first officer. The cheif is a friend of mine,along with most of the officers. I still can't figure out why he blew up like he did.

I don't know how you would handle the situation, but I'm different. Having a second officer to cover me is in my favor. I'm gonna keep as safe as possible, and ask what's going on, and inform the armed person that I would need to see the gun to run the numbers. That he could just use 2fingers to unholster, and place it on my hood. I would be more than happy to tell him I just want to be safe, and be sure were all safe. Then let the last thing I do to be run the #s.
I would have had no problem with that.

It's just me! I'm a magnet for crap.

I have had several bad encounters with leo's. Whats sad is im a big supporter of leo's,and the job they do. I know its tough!

BTW: I take it you are LEO?
Just in case you have not been told lately. Thank you for your service.
You are like soilders trying to fight a war on a budget. Under paid, under funded, and far under equipped!

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Old 10-08-2009, 09:43 AM   #15
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Sorry man but no matter how hard you tell me you have the right to have the gun, you are either handing it over to me, going back in your house or putting the gun some place and staying away from it. My life is way more valuable then you having your gun on you.
Sorry pardner but you need to follow the law just like I do.

While I respect the tough job LEOs have - your life is NOT more valuable than my life...
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Old 10-08-2009, 06:47 PM   #16
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Grease, thank you and I am sorry for the bad encounter. I all lines of work there are good and bad. Not to say this LEO is always bad but if what you say went down did, then he took a bad stand. Thanks for your support.

NGIB, you did not read my post correctly. As you see below I did not say my life if worth more then yours. I said my life is worth more then you having your gun. If you look at Grease's last post he says there was two LEO's on scene. They did not need his or your gun there for help. Along with the 2ND admin rights come responsibly. Yes you have the right to have your gun but my 34 LEO's killed this year by people with guns tells me I do not want a person that I do not know or I have not trained with having a gun next to me or behind me. Sorry man but my wife and kids want me to come home. If you have the gun lawfully then make the situation calmer by going inside or handing the gun over. Check out The Officer Down Memorial Page, Inc. for LEO's killed in the line of duty. That will tell you why I look at it this way.

Like I said before, I support your gun rights and like having responsible citizens out there with guns. I just don't know what one are responsible and what one would kill me. If your find a way for me to tell that 100% or the time let me know.

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+1 WDB.Sorry man but no matter how hard you tell me you have the right to have the gun, you are either handing it over to me, going back in your house or putting the gun some place and staying away from it. My life is way more valuable then you having your gun on you.
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:14 PM   #17
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Sorry but I don't buy what you're selling at all. The law is the law - for all of us. Are you really suggesting that the law applies to me but not to you because of your job? This incident recently happened to a fellow I know in Cobb Co, Georgia. He's in his mid-50s and diabetic and carries for personal protection. The response he got to this letter to the department chief was - NOTHING.

There is currently a lawsuit in the works and I suspect the Cobb County government will have to waste more of it's tax dollars to pay this fellow for the totally inappropriate behavior of these officers. I'm not anti-LEO in any sense; however, I wonder how many law abiding citizens have been killed for going unarmed due to the fear of being "criminalized" by over zealous LEOs...

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May 13, 2009

Cobb County Department Public Safety
Director
100 Cherokee Street, Suite 460
Marietta, GA 30090

Cobb County Police Department
Chief
140 N. Marietta Parkway
Marietta, GA 30060

Gentlemen-

I just had a most unpleasant encounter with two Cobb County Police Officers at 11:30 this morning.

Corporal S, Badge # 08XX – Precinct Two, and Officer K, Badge # 09XX

I was on my daily walk up Bells Ferry Road and had just completed my purchase of a newspaper in the Publix store. The two officers intercepted me at the door and ordered me to accompany them. Immediately outside the door, they got ‘intense’ and asked me if I had a concealed weapon. To which, I answered, “Yes.” (They may have asked if I was law enforcement too.)

I was told I could not carry concealed in Georgia by Cpl. S. I replied, “I most certainly can, I have a Georgia Firearms License.” Cpl. S replied for me to place my hands behind my back and proceeded to handcuff me. I asked why he was handcuffing me when I had done nothing wrong.

I got the reply, “Officer Safety.” He asked if he could remove my weapon and I said, “No.” He did anyway and unloaded it. He handed my Smith & Wesson 642 to the female officer and she recorded the serial number. They demanded my ID and asked where my GFL was. I said, “In my wallet.” Cpl. S asked if it was in my fannypack medical bag.

They wanted clarification, and I told them again, in my wallet, and noted I could not get it and that the handcuffs were causing immense pain. One of them yanked the wallet out of my pocket and the female officer asked where it (the GFL) was.” I replied that I am legal and that they have no cause to detain me and ask to have the handcuffs removed. Cpl. S declined. Meanwhile, I watched as the female took out my card holder and looked at my Utah Concealed Weapons Permit.

I informed her that as a Georgia resident, that Utah permit was not the one she needed and I got a snide remark. She turned to the next slot and proceeded to copy information from my GFL. I again asked Cpl. S to unhandcuff me since they had no reason to detain me. He said again, “Officer Safety.” I replied that he could see I was legal, I was committing no crime, I was no threat, and they had no cause to detain me at all. He replied, “It is department policy.” I replied that, “I am legal and there is no reason to keep me in handcuffs.” All the while wincing and trying to relax the pain of the left handcuff biting into my mid-forearm.

He replied that it was for their safety, again. I then demanded to be released. The female officer indicated I was legal and then Cpl. S started to unhandcuff me. When I finally could relax the left side and brought it around to be undone, Cpl. S seemed to be shocked at the purple bruise and the deep indentation at my mid-forearm. He had difficulty removing it because of the deep welt and he seemed at that point to not want to cause me further pain.

At that point, my Smith & Wesson was returned to me along with a handful of cartridges. I started to reload, and was told not to do so until they had walked away. I turned and walked a short distance and reloaded and reholstered. Then, I asked for the officers’ badge numbers and received them, courteously.

In the end, I was subjected to an unreasonable detainment and pain. I was handcuffed and paraded in front of a store where all the management are my friends. I was searched and handcuffed. For what? Why on earth was a citizen handled in such a manner when it was obvious that I was going about my normal business and nobody was reacting in a negative way? There was absolutely NO Reasonable Articulatable Suspicion I was anything but a law-abiding citizen! There mere presence of a firearms IS NOT a crime in Georgia! Even after I was told that “You cannot carry concealed here in Georgia” and I informed them I held a GFL, why was I handcuffed? This turned into a tier 2 encounter, and it was not proper to do so.

I am diabetic, and I have circulation problems. My arm still hurts where the handcuff made a bruise. I do not think permanent damage was done, but it sure hurts as a write this hours later!

It is my understanding that a MWAG call was made by somebody on the street. Why did this call go unquestioned? Did not the dispatcher ask if a firearm was being brandished, or merely holstered? Was there a threat, or only the witnessing of a firearm? Why did not the officers contact the person calling to ascertain whether anything was wrong in the first place? Why was the caller not told that carrying of a firearm was perfectly legal? Why did the officers go directly into a tier 2 encounter, instead of ascertaining if a crime existed at all? Heck, I almost called police when some silver SUV darned near struck me in the crosswalk at Hawkins Store and Bells Ferry minutes before! It seems to me that the officers involved should have been more cognizant of the rights of the individual, instead of jumping directly into an unnecessary, and questionable, tier 2 confrontation. Is it indeed, “department policy” to go directly to a tier 2 encounter when asking a GFL holder about his weapon?

It seems to me that some training should be proffered as to what the law actually requires of the officer when asking about a weapon. The courts have found the mere presence of a firearm is not RAS to believe a crime is taking place, because the carry of firearms is perfectly legal. AND the officers had already understood I had the GFL. I regularly talk to quite a few officers on Bells Ferry Road and not one has previously ever been anything but interested and friendly. In fact, I would request that a follow up response to the caller would be appropriate to inform her that carrying is legal and that it is a waste of resources to occupy the police with such.

I walk Bells Ferry Road daily. Virtually, every day at I575, the Shell station intersection, the turn lane from Hawkins Store Road north – onto Bells Ferry, the Heck Road intersection, Bells Ferry Road onto Shallowford…. People come exceedingly close to striking pedestrians daily. ME, while in a crosswalk under a walk signal. In fact, I have been struck by cars and trucks that never stopped many times. You waste resources with MWAG calls where no law is broken, yet right (and left) turning drivers imperil walking persons daily in this area? In fact, I’d like to discuss ways to address the danger to pedestrians on this stretch of road with you. Perhaps having a “sting” like Roswell and Alpharetta and Atlanta accomplished would raise some awareness and have a positive impact on safety in the area?

Further, it might give your officers a bit of a pause to realize that in my fannypack, I carried a cocked and locked Beretta in the holster compartment. ….and in my right front pocket I had a Ruger LCP in a holster. If truly they were worried about officer safety, they would surely have searched my person and discovered thus? They may have had pause at the boxcutter in my left front pocket? But they did not… they never knew. They were intent on handcuffing a person entirely within the law, already having informed them I had a GFL. “Officer safety”, indeed! What they did was wrong.

Sincerely-
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Old 10-08-2009, 07:53 PM   #18
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^^^ That is damn pathetic right there.

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Old 10-08-2009, 08:01 PM   #19
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Also, I have a question for all the LEOs. In a state like Wisconsin, where ONLY open carry is legal, do you actually advocate that the citizens remain unarmed? Do you really expect them to sacrifice the ability to defend themselves to make you feel safe?

Sorry, but unless any of you are willing to be with me and my family 24 hours a day, seven days a week - my only viable option is to exercise my constitutional right to protect myself.

Again, all I ask is for LEOs to follow the same laws I'm expected to follow - no more and no less...

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Old 10-09-2009, 03:54 AM   #20
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Also, I have a question for all the LEOs. In a state like Wisconsin, where ONLY open carry is legal, do you actually advocate that the citizens remain unarmed? Do you really expect them to sacrifice the ability to defend themselves to make you feel safe?

Sorry, but unless any of you are willing to be with me and my family 24 hours a day, seven days a week - my only viable option is to exercise my constitutional right to protect myself.

Again, all I ask is for LEOs to follow the same laws I'm expected to follow - no more and no less...
NGIB, I do not expect anyone to not be safe. I my state WA, a person can carry in the open or concealed with a permit. In Wisconsin if you can only carry in the open then that is how it is. In my state I do not think open carry is a good idea in a city environment. I the country is another thing.

As for following the same laws, I am expected to enforce these laws and know them. In fact I have had my a$$ handed to me for not knowing the laws in the past. I do my best to know the laws and enforce them correctly. But one can not know every law for every situation. Some times you do not get all the info you need before arriving on scene. I have had this more then one time and thankfully it all worked out well. Most dispatchers do not know what to ask or they have so many calls coming in they do not have time. The LEO's have to get the info in the field. Some times the caller is not around to get that info from.

I am sorry your friend had this experience. There are several issued at play with it. 1ST is the info given to the dispatch then given to the LEO's on scene. 2ND how they talked to your friend was not good. Respect goes a long way. Granted depending on how the call was given they might not have looked at it as a calm situation. If your friend stayed calm then they needed to stay calm. 3RD handcuffing him was most likely not needed. I would have asked him where his gun was and then asked he either to hand it to me or stay away from it. I would have then asked he slowly get his CPL so I can verify the info. Now if you friend went off on me I would have cuffed him up, if he can not talk with me with out yelling then I can not trust he will not do something to me or others. 4TH I do not like it when a citizen sends in a complaint like this and the PD or SO do not get back to him. The only thing I can think of is they did not want to open themself up for the lawsuit or they are just plain unfriendly to the public.

With all that said I can see both sides of this situation. It all comes down to what info the LEO's got, how they all responded to the contact and just an all around respect issue. I do think asking him to load his gun after they walked away was a good idea.

I have had several contacts with persons with guns. They have all been good ones and no one had to get out of control. I am respectful and do my best to not restrict their rights. I have not have anyone tell me they would not give me their gun when I ask. I suspect if that does happen I will keep calm, do my best to help them understand and keep things safe.

I think we both have good points on this one. I do not think we will see eye to eye on all of it. I think a big thing missing in most of these contacts is respect and understanding. Both have a lot of info missing but it sounds like the LEO's got a little to intense right off the bat.

The best I can do is keep my self and any LEO's I train respectful until the person I am contacting makes it so I can not. Some people you just can't talk to. Action is all they understand, but that is the last thing I want with any contact.

Thank you to keeping an open mind and having a clean back and forth with me on this. Bigguns911.
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