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Man sues over arrest for open carry


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Old 04-22-2013, 05:10 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Agreed.

I really used to dislike the OC crowd, mostly due to a couple of idiots posting there LEO encounter on youtube... but I've been paying a lot more attention to it lately and the majority of encounters I'm seeing are with educated guys who know the law, stay calm and polite, but also assert there rights and refuse to cower by showing ID to a cop who's only reason for asking is a 911 call and the cops observation of a citizen doing "nothing illegal".

This is changing my attitude towards OC activists... I'm starting to see the educational value in displaying the "legal" aspect of this to the community and in educating officers.

I know all states are different and I know some don't like a citizen saying... "No Officer, I don't think I'll show you my ID today"...

But... If it's legal and the person is not behaving in a manner that would cause concern... then there is no reason to get your "papers checked". JMHO.

Personally... I understand LEO concerns but they do need better training on this topic and more importantly... the 911 dispatchers need better training.

They should not be wasting resources dispatching officers to investigate legal activity.

Tack
Exactly. United States v Deberry found:

The law of many states authorized the carrying of concealed weapons [or in this case in plain view]. At that point, the entire content of the anonymous tip would be a physical description of the individual, his location, and an allegation that he was carrying something lawful (a cellular telephone? a beeper? a firearm?). This kind of nonincriminatory allegation, in my view, would not be enough to justify the kind of investigatory stop that took place here.

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IMO, i believe that some people who OC are looking for a confrontation with LE. i have seen a few YouTube videos that reinforce that opinion. they are simply looking for trouble.

if i were OCing, what does it hurt to show my DL if asked? IMO, none. i am doing nothing wrong, nor do i have anything to hide. i would simply hand him my DL, and let him know in polite manner, that i was excercising my right to OC.

personally i see nothing wrong with that. why cause a hassle? IMO, if you want respect from others, even LE, then you give respect.

another simple matter, if he detains you and wants to act all bad aZZ and run you in, let him! then call a lawyer and sue the crap out him and his dept when it's thrown out of court. trying to fight it out with him on the street is not in your best interests nor to your advantage. because then, he tacks on resisting and hindering an officer in the performance of his duties. that puts you also at a disadvantage when it goes to court.

my advice to those who OC, do it wisely and use some common sense. don't escalate a situation that doesn't need to be.
If you ask me, it's the cops who's doing the hassling. It's not so simple as "just sueing" them. It's a constitutional case, which means it will be a very expensive lawyer.

I happen to be sitting pretty in the position of having been arrested for open carry and beaten the charges in court. But I can't afford to hire another attorney. And let's face it. Many people refuse to believe that possession of a firearm doesn't provide reasonable suspicion and or probable cause, despite what the courts say.

And remember, civil disobedience was lauded by the founders.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:07 AM   #142
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In every state and jurisdiction that has laws regarding OC or CC there are rules. When you apply for a permit or participate in these activities you are consenting to comply with these rules. You will be required by law to produce certain documents to the LEO.
Any failure to comply can cause your future abilities to carry any firearm can be curtailed. Think before you react.
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:12 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by nitestalker View Post
In every state and jurisdiction that has laws regarding OC or CC there are rules. When you apply for a permit or participate in these activities you are consenting to comply with these rules. You will be required by law to produce certain documents to the LEO.
Any failure to comply can cause your future abilities to carry any firearm can be curtailed. Think before you react.
I disagree vehemently. You can make the argument that a person is subject to a law, but not that they consent simply because it exists. This is a vitally important distinction to make if you are to understand tyranny.

I dislike the word tyranny. -_-
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

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Old 04-23-2013, 02:25 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by nitestalker View Post
In every state and jurisdiction that has laws regarding OC or CC there are rules. When you apply for a permit or participate in these activities you are consenting to comply with these rules. You will be required by law to produce certain documents to the LEO.
Any failure to comply can cause your future abilities to carry any firearm can be curtailed. Think before you react.
What you said is the 'norm', but it is 'wrong'! This is what I have been fighting for most of my life. 'Rights' should not be treated as 'privileges'!
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:03 PM   #145
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What you said is the 'norm', but it is 'wrong'! This is what I have been fighting for most of my life. 'Rights' should not be treated as 'privileges'!
Agreed.

I personally have never OC'd... yet... but I live in an OC State... I've reviewed the WA State Laws concerning the matter... and there is no "legal" reason for an officer to stop and ID any citizen who is exercising this right.

It is a relatively "new" activity... and I understand that most Cops are "if not ignorant" of it, are, at a minimum, very surprised to have an Citizen question there desire to see identification.

Participating in this activity requires a level head and the mentality that it's an opportunity to help "educate" both Cops and the public.

Some of the worst LEO behavior I've seen revolves around there misconception that they GET to ID anyone the want... for any reason they can think of...and this is a problem.

It's not entirely there fault however, they have been trained to be good little storm troopers in the war on drugs and just about everything they do is geared toward tricking or intimidating a citizen into consenting to a search... so they can look for drugs.

Whether your a stand up citizen like all my friends here or not... all Americans should be smart enough to NEVER consent to a search for any reason and to ALWAYS ask a COP why you were stopped and what "illegal" activity you are suspected of?

If he does not have an articulate suspicion of illegal activity that he can clearly state, then he has no business checking your ID... and if he does have reasonable suspicion, refusing to consent verbally and loudly will only help you later should you be arrested.

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Old 04-24-2013, 12:37 AM   #146
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TB,

We had a couple of strong advocates in MI. Their OC activities led the State Police to issue a fantastic "advisory" that did a lot to expand OC. Recently, a co-worker who's brother worked for a local PD was spouting a bunch of stuff about OC leading to take down and arrest. A follow up from the strong OC org with his management, led to a position statement from the department. Do I always agree with what it done, no, but it is also their right to do so, and for that I respect them.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:04 AM   #147
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TB,

We had a couple of strong advocates in MI. Their OC activities led the State Police to issue a fantastic "advisory" that did a lot to expand OC. Recently, a co-worker who's brother worked for a local PD was spouting a bunch of stuff about OC leading to take down and arrest. A follow up from the strong OC org with his management, led to a position statement from the department. Do I always agree with what it done, no, but it is also their right to do so, and for that I respect them.
To use the liberal play book... Civil Dissobedience is the greatest form of Patriotism.

Took me awhile too see it but these OC activists are right up there with GW and TJ.

Tack
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Old 04-24-2013, 04:26 AM   #148
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Civil disobedience is the only true tool we have. Non-heterosexuals are doing it by parading in the streets. The sons and daughters of slaves did it by sitting in, women did it to get the Susan B. Anthony, booze ran in the streets before prohibition was finally repealed. History is rife with such examples. Frequently not only were laws broken, but social norms were violated. And we are better for it today. So I propose not to go quietly into the night.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:24 PM   #149
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Civil disobedience is the only true tool we have. Non-heterosexuals are doing it by parading in the streets. The sons and daughters of slaves did it by sitting in, women did it to get the Susan B. Anthony, booze ran in the streets before prohibition was finally repealed. History is rife with such examples. Frequently not only were laws broken, but social norms were violated. And we are better for it today. So I propose not to go quietly into the night.
I have been advocating we as gun owners start a National 'Rosa Parks' movement. But it MUST be an organized effort because they (the progressive government) will littererly squash an individual (as do everyday) for not 'complying' with 'their' unconstitutional orders (laws)!
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:56 PM   #150
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In every state and jurisdiction that has laws regarding OC or CC there are rules. When you apply for a permit or participate in these activities you are consenting to comply with these rules. You will be required by law to produce certain documents to the LEO.
Any failure to comply can cause your future abilities to carry any firearm can be curtailed. Think before you react.
I don't reside in the Heart of Darkness, but in the state of Georgia and as such I am bound by the laws laid out in the Official Code of Georgia, Annotated.

I can tell you with absolute confidence that there is no section, paragraph, chapter or verse that requires me to display my Georgia Weapons Carry License to any police officer who just happens to spot me with a weapon.

The way the law is written is the same as for driving a car; while a license is required for either an officer must first witness a crime related to such or have some other reasonable suspicion that the driver or carrier does not possess a license. Just as an officer cannot stop random people* he sees driving to check if they have a license, he can not stop random people he sees carrying arms to check as well.

*suspicionless, fourth amendment violating roadblocks for checking sobriety and licenses excepted, and I'll make note that Georgia requires Every car to be stopped and not random ones in such instances.
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