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Old 04-21-2013, 09:12 PM   #131
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Got any links to this claim?
Tack,

You apparently missed my sarcasm
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:33 AM   #132
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I have come to the conclusion the OC people make it safer for those of us who CC. They get all of the attention, both good and bad, and thus add to my ability to go unnoticed and to have the element of surprise should I need to deploy my PPD!

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Old 04-22-2013, 01:47 AM   #133
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Tack,

You apparently missed my sarcasm
Ooops... Next time help a fella out with some Green Text

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Old 04-22-2013, 02:13 AM   #134
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I have come to the conclusion the OC people make it safer for those of us who CC. They get all of the attention, both good and bad, and thus add to my ability to go unnoticed and to have the element of surprise should I need to deploy my PPD!
This is just what I have been thinking. I think the people that do OC but don't present to be competent give the rest of us a bad name.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:51 AM   #135
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I'm amazed at the divide created here and in public the second a situation includes a LEO and a civilian, both with weapons, but only one with a badge. Common sense and etiquette seem to carry more weight than the laws themselves. For some reason, the second the citizen gets emotional while he packing, he's assumed to be a risk to the cop and "others" and must be a criminal or worthy of detention and physical response by the LEO.

This isnt a discussion of if one should always show respect to LEO's, we should show due respect to everyone, everyday but there is no law that says we must be respectful or were automatically suspect of a crime thats not in evidence just because were carrying a legal tool. Being rude or disrespectful to a Police officer or an elected representative may be poor manners but its not against the law even in New York!

The next thing those "supporting" LEO's over reaction say is "Leo's have a dangerous job, we need to support them", yup I agree but they chose that job knowing they must serve and protect all citizens rights regardless of the verbal attitude of those they encounter. As an Infantry Soldier, I had the same requirement, I wouldnt be justified to manhandle anyone that was rude, we were trained to expect verbal resistance and react within the laws and ROE's. The USA isnt a warzone, its a nation of citizens that are assumed innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law.

Those testing the waters of the 2A with a less civil attitude arent to be congratulated but they likely dont deserve retaliation without a specific action that goes further than "He was rude and he had a gun". If having a gun and a less than polite demeanor are against the law than probably half the LEO's and Soldiers are just as guilty as the person they are detaining for a "lack of good manners while in possession of a firearm".

I would not choose Law enforcement as my career for many reasons, one big one is I just dont have what it takes to stand down when someone gets in my face that isnt my boss but thats just me knowing me. Call me an idiot if you want but Police Officers serve us, we have no mandate to serve them or bow to any supremacy they wield via their badge. Because we were National Guard, we trained often for Civil Disturbance, we were provoked and prodded verbally with skirmishers attempts to make us react and break ranks any way they could. It was both our job and duty to stay focused on the actions of those taunting us, not their words.

A bunch of you that are LEO's will disapprove of my conjecture here as naive or anti LEO, It neither of those. Ive stood side by side with LEO's in full riot gear, machine gun in my hand and would do it again any day the need arises. They respected the Bars and Rocker on my Helmet and US Army on my chest then, they need to respect the fact that Im just one of the US Citizens they were hired to protect rights regardless of their opinion or judgement of my attitude without actual cause even without the Military Rank on my forehead.

Yes its a horribly tough job, yes I have been respectful to every Police Officer Ive ever encountered in my life, no its not the law to mandate that as a term of citizenship. Lastly, just like every other profession, there are many doing it that are unsuited mentally to do the job because they morph the laws they live by that we are required to abide by.
Great post. You said a lot.

We have some people who seem to believe that civilians must kow-tow to LEO's, too. It's a bizarre attitude. Do they have a tough job? Yup. Is it dangerous? Sorta, but not really. Driving a cab, long distance trucking, commercial fishing, loggers....those fellows are all more likely to be killed at work than a cop. We don't allow any of them to throw their weight around, though, do we?

If our Canadian troops in Afghanistan operated under the same rambo bully attitudes that are too often on display among our big police forces, they'd have shot every Afghan who reached around to scratch his arse.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:52 AM   #136
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The Federal Police in Canada are the most "Gestapo" elitist in the world. Canada is the only country I was ever held in as a visitor. The Canadian Customs reported to the Mounties that I had an American Concealed Carry Permit. They checked my wallet after seeing a firearms magazine in my luggage. Gees, not even in England did they do that BS. I was held for 5 Hours. I ask for the American Consulate and the cowardly Canadian Mounties ran like the rats that they are.
We enjoy many freedoms not allowed in oppressive nations like Canada. At the end of the day our LEOs are responsible to the American citizens. Our citizens should comply with the law. The law says take it to court if you are not satisfied. Our firearms rights have been defended by our courts.

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Old 04-22-2013, 02:27 PM   #137
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This is just what I have been thinking. I think the people that do OC but don't present to be competent give the rest of us a bad name.
Not necessarily! It depends on their demeanor and the circumstances and environment.
But as I stated above it does give those of us who CC a tactical edge!
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:04 PM   #138
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Not necessarily! It depends on their demeanor and the circumstances and environment.
But as I stated above it does give those of us who CC a tactical edge!
Agreed.

I really used to dislike the OC crowd, mostly due to a couple of idiots posting there LEO encounter on youtube... but I've been paying a lot more attention to it lately and the majority of encounters I'm seeing are with educated guys who know the law, stay calm and polite, but also assert there rights and refuse to cower by showing ID to a cop who's only reason for asking is a 911 call and the cops observation of a citizen doing "nothing illegal".

This is changing my attitude towards OC activists... I'm starting to see the educational value in displaying the "legal" aspect of this to the community and in educating officers.

I know all states are different and I know some don't like a citizen saying... "No Officer, I don't think I'll show you my ID today"...

But... If it's legal and the person is not behaving in a manner that would cause concern... then there is no reason to get your "papers checked". JMHO.

Personally... I understand LEO concerns but they do need better training on this topic and more importantly... the 911 dispatchers need better training.

They should not be wasting resources dispatching officers to investigate legal activity.

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Old 04-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #139
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IMO, i believe that some people who OC are looking for a confrontation with LE. i have seen a few YouTube videos that reinforce that opinion. they are simply looking for trouble.

if i were OCing, what does it hurt to show my DL if asked? IMO, none. i am doing nothing wrong, nor do i have anything to hide. i would simply hand him my DL, and let him know in polite manner, that i was excercising my right to OC.

personally i see nothing wrong with that. why cause a hassle? IMO, if you want respect from others, even LE, then you give respect.

another simple matter, if he detains you and wants to act all bad aZZ and run you in, let him! then call a lawyer and sue the crap out him and his dept when it's thrown out of court. trying to fight it out with him on the street is not in your best interests nor to your advantage. because then, he tacks on resisting and hindering an officer in the performance of his duties. that puts you also at a disadvantage when it goes to court.

my advice to those who OC, do it wisely and use some common sense. don't escalate a situation that doesn't need to be.

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Old 04-22-2013, 04:58 PM   #140
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I agree with the "always be respectful" attitude but I do not think it's "disrespectful" to "assert your rights".

LEO's do not get to "check your papers" just because your OC "scarred" some sheep and they called 911.

Now... if the person looks like they could be below the legal age of possessing a firearm, appears to be intoxicated, or is "KNOWN" by the LEO to be otherwise prohibited, then fine, investigate all you like.

BUT... a 911 call reporting a person engaging in a LEGAL activity is no reason to be stopped and questioned. If LEO want to "drive by" and see "nothing illegal"... they should smile, wave, and continue on there way.

911 operators in OC states should be informing callers that open carry is legal and ask them to call back if the person draws the gun or acts in a threatening manner... otherwise... there is nothing they can do.

In most of these encounters I see a Cop asking the OC advocate why "he's" giving them a hard time, why "he's" wasting there time and resources?

The answer is that it's not the OC advocate who's wasting there time, he's doing nothing illegal. It's LEO's who do not understand that law who are wasting everyone's time.

I'm not the type to walk around with a camera doing this sort of thing but I do appreciate the value of advocates retraining a public to understand there rights and to exercise them... not just OC rights but the right to NOT speak with police or show your ID if the LEO's can not provide you with an articulate reason for needing to see it... and "placating the sheep" is NOT an articulate reason.

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IMO, i believe that some people who OC are looking for a confrontation with LE. i have seen a few YouTube videos that reinforce that opinion. they are simply looking for trouble.

if i were OCing, what does it hurt to show my DL if asked? IMO, none. i am doing nothing wrong, nor do i have anything to hide. i would simply hand him my DL, and let him know in polite manner, that i was excercising my right to OC.

personally i see nothing wrong with that. why cause a hassle? IMO, if you want respect from others, even LE, then you give respect.

another simple matter, if he detains you and wants to act all bad aZZ and run you in, let him! then call a lawyer and sue the crap out him and his dept when it's thrown out of court. trying to fight it out with him on the street is not in your best interests nor to your advantage. because then, he tacks on resisting and hindering an officer in the performance of his duties. that puts you also at a disadvantage when it goes to court.

my advice to those who OC, do it wisely and use some common sense. don't escalate a situation that doesn't need to be.
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