Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection > Let us talk about SELF DEFENSE for a moment

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Old 12-16-2011, 06:50 PM   #11
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I stand corrected...

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Old 12-16-2011, 06:57 PM   #12
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LOL @ "snacking on Woody the perp"

Hurt my dog for doing HIS job and God hath no fury....that would be akin to harming one of my chirens...I'll kill you on principle alone and not lose a moments sleep over it! Like my eldest says, "Man, I think you love that dog more than you love us, your kids." Then i say, "Well if you kids listened near as well as he does i might love you as much." Remember kiddies thats coming from a person that doesnt EVER want to be forced to kill ANYTHING!


(deer notwithstanding....The creator made them just soo dern tasty i am forced to kill 'em )
I understand the emotion behind that. I mean...our dogs ARE part of our family. Cats...meh...not so much. But your dog is your buddy...even if you're a dick, your dog still loves you. The argument has been made before about using deadly force to defend your animals...in SOME ranching and agricultural states you MAY use deadly force to defend livestock...so that argument can be made.

However...think about this...someone enters your home , threatens to shoot Fluffy...is lethal force justified?

IN MY OPINION: Yes. Because you have a VIOLENT intruder in your home. A reasonable person could conclude that if the intruder is armed and threatening vilolence against your pet....they are more than CAPABLE and WILLING TO BE AN IMMEDIATE AND OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM. I have researched it, and found no precedent one way or another...but it is a reasonable conclusion to make.

CREDIBLE DEFENSE of your actions. REASONABLE. PRUDENT ACTION. These are all words that MUST be applied to ANY defensive situation. Obviously, in your home, you have vastly more leeway and freedom of action than anywhere else...but you still must operate your brain before you ever decide to try to operate a deadly weapon. (Not directed at you fmj...just a general statement)
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:00 PM   #13
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While I totally agree with you AZL, this happened in my neck of the woods almost 2 years ago. So it can happen though it is rare.

Wimberley teen dies of head injury

From staff reports

A 19-year-old Wimberley man died on Sunday from injuries he received when he fell and struck his head on a curb after being slugged by an unknown person.
Police said Christopher Blab died around 6 p.m. Sunday at Austin's University Medical Center at Brackenridge. He was taken to Central Texas Medical Center early Saturday by two friends. They told police he'd fallen after being punched in the face at the University Heights Apartments in the 1600 block of IH-35 North. Officers responded to CTMC at 2:56 a.m. Blab was then airlifted to Brackenridge.
Yeah Biz....I understand...but the reason THAT made the news is because it is absolutely NOT the norm. It is so rare that it is still not reasonable to believe a regular punch will do that. It was an anomaly.

They thing to ALWAYS remember is "REASONABLE". That's the standard that MUST be met.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:08 PM   #14
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Oh I agree totally it was a freak accident that is not the norm. As Trip and you have both said the best policy is do everything in your power to avoid confrontation.

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Old 12-16-2011, 07:19 PM   #15
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While I agree with your principle point I have experienced different results. I am 6'2" 240lbs and have boxed on and off since I was 17. I can tell you OUTSIDE the ring, on the street I have been knocked out twice. Both times was when i wasn't expecting a punch. I also have scored about 80% 1 punch knockouts of other dudes. I'm not bragging or think it was a good idea (being in the military at 22 makes you an idiot lol), just pointing out it does happen. If I was a bad man and any of the guys I've hit had a gun, it would have been mine in seconds.... Just food for thought friend...

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Old 12-16-2011, 08:12 PM   #16
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Oh I've been knocked out more than once myself. The first time was in the 5th grade, a guy twice my size who was repeating the grade for the 3rd time used my head like a speed bag, with the brick wall behind me providing the rebound.

The second time was boot camp, pugil stick training. Native American guy named.... Orangello would love it.... Blackbear. Don't know if that was a first name, last name, or only given name or what.

There have been others, but my memory is kind of fuzzy.

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Old 12-16-2011, 08:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286
Oh I've been knocked out more than once myself. The first time was in the 5th grade, a guy twice my size who was repeating the grade for the 3rd time used my head like a speed bag, with the brick wall behind me providing the rebound.

The second time was boot camp, pugil stick training. Native American guy named.... Orangello would love it.... Blackbear. Don't know if that was a first name, last name, or only given name or what.

There have been others, but my memory is kind of fuzzy.
I bet that pugil training would of been fun to watch probably not so fun for u lol
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:12 PM   #18
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... Blackbear.
Only good bear is a dead bear, but a caged bear might be passable if it can juggle well enough.


When it really comes down to it, i am not shooting someone unless the idea of going to court on it seems less threatening, and i utterly HATE the idea of going to court. No good can come of going to court, though i hear rumors that the courts can, in some rare cases, mitigate bad that has been done or ,in mostly theoretical cases, prevent bad things from being done. I would walk away from a LOT of property before i would go to court over it. If i have to shoot somebody, they really have me in a corner and at serious risk of death or potentially deadly injury.

If there is a threat to my life, i will risk going before the blind (probably from drinking) bitch "justice" or perhaps just jump bond and split.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:30 PM   #19
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What IS self defense?

You'd think it is a pretty simple answer...and it IS...but the interpretation of "self defense" by a LOT of people is skewed and in many cases I have seen on here...COMPLETELY off the mark.

Self defense is SIMPLY put: Use of force that is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances. That is a pretty broad and legal definition of SELF DEFENSE...note however it is NOT a definition of LETHAL FORCE and we will talk about that in a minute.

Okay...now that that's out of the way. You must have noticed how many times "reasonable" or a variation thereof was used? That is the yardstick by which one WILL be judged when defending one's self.

Assuming similar size and physical condition, is it reasonable to draw your pistol and shoot someone who punches you? The text book, and real world answer is an absloute NO. The REASONABLE response is to retreat or use "ONLY THAT FORCE WHICH IS NECCESSARY TO STOP THE ASSAULT". This may be a punch in return, but really? Now you're just engaging in good old fashioned fisticufs. Not smart...but hey..some knuckle draggers like that kind of thing, and if you do enjoy it...DON'T CARRY A GUN, or get involved with MMA so some other knuckle dragger can punch you for a while. A better response would be to engage ONLY long enough to stop the assault, then unass the area. After all...that is really what SD is all about...stopping the assault so you can retreat to safety.

I have seen SO many misguided douchtetards on forums say that "If he punches me, I'm gonna shoot him!" A simple punch is just that. Many will argue that if punched I could:

1. Fall and hit my head and die.
2. Lose my gun.

The above examples are the two most popular. Really folks...I have been hit MANY MANY times in the face and NONE of them came close to knocking me out, down, or unconcsious, let alone killing me. If a simple punch was lethal danger...MMA fighters would die everytime they got into the ring.

If you lose your gun...your weapon retention plan (i.e. good holster or general self defense skills) sucks, and you shouldn't be carrying a gun. Look back to the above...your BEST plan is to stop the assault, and unass the area.

A simple punch or even a reg'lar ass whoopin' do NOT rise to the level of IMMEDIATE AND OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM. Sorry to be the burster of bubbles to those who want to get them a killin' under their belt...but there you have it. Keep your eyes open, pie hole shut, and your common sense and MANNERS turned on, and the vast majority of the time, you won't even need to be in a scuffle. Now some of you will bring up "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground Laws"....that's fine. It is still MUCH SMARTER to just leave if you can do so in safety. Unless you've got a hard on to shoot someone...that's what a SMART person will do. If you have the aforementioned priaprism to gun some scumbag down...you've got more issues than Lindsey Lohan, and your boobs aren't nearly as nice.

So...in a pretty well evenly matched confrontation...if someone punches you and you kill/maim/wound/shoot them....DING DING DING...you just bought yourself a whole heap of legal trouble.

If you have been in a confrontation, extract yourself, then arm yourself and go back and re-engage LIKE AN IDIOT...the other person NOW HAS THE ABILITY TO DEAL WITH YOU AND CLAIM SELD DEFENSE. Enjoy going to prison for being stupid. You were SAFELY extracted from the situation and "went back for some payback" or because your weak assed pride was wounded a WHOLE LOT more than you were and you had to show them what a tough customer you were. All you are is an IDIOT.

Okay...yes...there ARE times when lethal force could be used against someone...that is DISPARITY OF FORCE and has been covered to death, and I don't feel like getting inot it right now. Female, elderly, handicapped, seriously outnumbered....yes...you can use lethal force. Assume I am right, save time and move on.

SO...the point of all this is to clarify what SELF DEFENSE really is.

I may...after coffee...get into Lethal Force...who knows?
i make a living working in a rehab hospital that deals frequently with the non-damaging damage a simple punch can do. everything from irreversable brain damage to facial mutilation. we got hospital beds that have been occupied on a frequent basis from people suffering great bodily harm from a simple fall.

participating in a bar fight and being assaulted by a goblin two different things. being in a shouting match over who has the bigger penis and getting punched i would agree not rise to lethal force defense... being assaulted unprovoked by a goblin does.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:56 PM   #20
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I have owned both dogs and cats, currently i cannot own a dog in my residence so I do have 2 cats that i rescued from being executed. Dog or Cat; a pet is part of the family and just like any other family member I would put up a pretty damn hard fight for there safety.

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