Let us talk about SELF DEFENSE for a moment
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:39 PM   #1
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Default Let us talk about SELF DEFENSE for a moment

What IS self defense?

You'd think it is a pretty simple answer...and it IS...but the interpretation of "self defense" by a LOT of people is skewed and in many cases I have seen on here...COMPLETELY off the mark.

Self defense is SIMPLY put: Use of force that is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances. That is a pretty broad and legal definition of SELF DEFENSE...note however it is NOT a definition of LETHAL FORCE and we will talk about that in a minute.

Okay...now that that's out of the way. You must have noticed how many times "reasonable" or a variation thereof was used? That is the yardstick by which one WILL be judged when defending one's self.

Assuming similar size and physical condition, is it reasonable to draw your pistol and shoot someone who punches you? The text book, and real world answer is an absloute NO. The REASONABLE response is to retreat or use "ONLY THAT FORCE WHICH IS NECCESSARY TO STOP THE ASSAULT". This may be a punch in return, but really? Now you're just engaging in good old fashioned fisticufs. Not smart...but hey..some knuckle draggers like that kind of thing, and if you do enjoy it...DON'T CARRY A GUN, or get involved with MMA so some other knuckle dragger can punch you for a while. A better response would be to engage ONLY long enough to stop the assault, then unass the area. After all...that is really what SD is all about...stopping the assault so you can retreat to safety.

I have seen SO many misguided douchtetards on forums say that "If he punches me, I'm gonna shoot him!" A simple punch is just that. Many will argue that if punched I could:

1. Fall and hit my head and die.
2. Lose my gun.

The above examples are the two most popular. Really folks...I have been hit MANY MANY times in the face and NONE of them came close to knocking me out, down, or unconcsious, let alone killing me. If a simple punch was lethal danger...MMA fighters would die everytime they got into the ring.

If you lose your gun...your weapon retention plan (i.e. good holster or general self defense skills) sucks, and you shouldn't be carrying a gun. Look back to the above...your BEST plan is to stop the assault, and unass the area.

A simple punch or even a reg'lar ass whoopin' do NOT rise to the level of IMMEDIATE AND OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM. Sorry to be the burster of bubbles to those who want to get them a killin' under their belt...but there you have it. Keep your eyes open, pie hole shut, and your common sense and MANNERS turned on, and the vast majority of the time, you won't even need to be in a scuffle. Now some of you will bring up "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground Laws"....that's fine. It is still MUCH SMARTER to just leave if you can do so in safety. Unless you've got a hard on to shoot someone...that's what a SMART person will do. If you have the aforementioned priapism to gun some scumbag down...you've got more issues than Lindsey Lohan, and your boobs aren't nearly as nice.

So...in a pretty well evenly matched confrontation...if someone punches you and you kill/maim/wound/shoot them....DING DING DING...you just bought yourself a whole heap of legal trouble.

If you have been in a confrontation, extract yourself, then arm yourself and go back and re-engage LIKE AN IDIOT...the other person NOW HAS THE ABILITY TO DEAL WITH YOU AND CLAIM SELD DEFENSE. Enjoy going to prison for being stupid. You were SAFELY extracted from the situation and "went back for some payback" or because your weak assed pride was wounded a WHOLE LOT more than you were and you had to show them what a tough customer you were. All you are is an IDIOT.

Okay...yes...there ARE times when lethal force could be used against someone...that is DISPARITY OF FORCE and has been covered to death, and I don't feel like getting inot it right now. Female, elderly, handicapped, seriously outnumbered....yes...you can use lethal force. Assume I am right, save time and move on.

SO...the point of all this is to clarify what SELF DEFENSE really is.

I may...after coffee...get into Lethal Force...who knows?

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Last edited by canebrake; 05-17-2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: TTTP
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:14 PM   #2
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More great info any and all carriers MUST be aware of! Bravo!

Quote:
Now some of you will bring up "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground Laws"....that's fine.
The way i understand "castle doctrine" it involves your home and property. NOT walking your fru fru wanna be dog down the street and someone engages you. Now, say, someone kicks in your door in the middle of the night, you have NO legal reason to retreat. THEY kicked in your door, it is assumed they are there to do you bodily harm, SHOOT without fear of legal repercussions.

Now "no retreat" or "stand your ground" doctrine (IN is a "no retreat" state) in the public domain i am fuzzy about and admitedly i MUST study on MUCH more.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmj
More great info any and all carriers MUST be aware of! Bravo!

The way i understand "castle doctrine" it involves your home and property. NOT walking your fru fru wanna be dog down the street and someone engages you. Now, say, someone kicks in your door in the middle of the night, you have NO legal reason to retreat. THEY kicked in your door, it is assumed they are there to do you bodily harm, SHOOT without fear of legal repercussions.
Agree. That's MY HOUSE and the had it coming if they get shot
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:26 PM   #4
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While I totally agree with you AZL, this happened in my neck of the woods almost 2 years ago. So it can happen though it is rare.

Wimberley teen dies of head injury

From staff reports

A 19-year-old Wimberley man died on Sunday from injuries he received when he fell and struck his head on a curb after being slugged by an unknown person.
Police said Christopher Blab died around 6 p.m. Sunday at Austin's University Medical Center at Brackenridge. He was taken to Central Texas Medical Center early Saturday by two friends. They told police he'd fallen after being punched in the face at the University Heights Apartments in the 1600 block of IH-35 North. Officers responded to CTMC at 2:56 a.m. Blab was then airlifted to Brackenridge.

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Old 12-16-2011, 03:36 PM   #5
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I will always avoid a situation where possible, especially in public where I would be hard pressed to not have/be able to find an egress route.

As far as a home invasion, the architecture of my home will prevent me from egressing. In fact, I have a 15 foot drop to deal with (as do my wife and son) if a fire breaks out in the front half of our apartment. There's only one way in (the front door), and 2 ways out (the same door, or jumping out the back window), and with it being so small it would likely not be feasible to bypass someone who's coming in the front door, especially as a 3 person family (excuse me Mr. Robber man, could you stand aside so we can leave you to your business?) or timely to round up the wife and kid and jump for it.

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Old 12-16-2011, 05:39 PM   #6
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I used "Castle Doctrine" simply as an example of what some would cry to the rafters to justify their desire to shoot.

Okay...so here goes:

Castle Doctrine, as most states apply it simply means you have "no duty to retreat within your home or curtilage". SOME places specifically do not include your garage, or property....it is up to you to figure out where those lines are drawn in YOUR area. NOW...this does NOT mean you can willy-nilly gun down ANYONE in your home at any time for any reason or whim.

But it does mean that if a REASONABLE person would believe there is a threat of death or grave bodily harm, you may use whatever force is neccessary to deal with that threat up to and including lethal force.

NOW...in the case of a home invasion...that is a VIOLENT AND TUMULTUOUS ENTRY. It can be REASONABLY inferred that a lethal threat exists because the very act of kicking in a door, or forcibly entering a home IS already a violent act, and home invasions often end in violence, death, rape for homeowners and familes. A reasonable response to that WOULD be lethal force in my opinion. If an intruder is between you and your children or spouse and is not complying with your order to leave and moves toward your spouse or children....lethal threat? A reasonable person would believe it to be.

What does YOUR moral compass say about gunning down an intruder from ambush? Personally...I can't answer that for you. Let me just say that I FIRMLY believe that killing someone when there is another way is wrong (mallum in se)...just wrong in and of itself. HOWEVER...if I reasonably believe that the intruder is immediately able to cause death or grave bodily harm to my family...HE has made the choice, and forced the action NOT ME, and I will do whatever I can to stop the threat.

Would you ask for compliance? I can't aswer that question right now either...not unless and until it happens, and it depends upon the immediate circumstances. "STOP! GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!" May just get the job done. It may not. No matter how you approach it, you better damned well make the right choice in the moment.

Even with the training I have had, and the experience I have had...my first choice is NOT to clear my house if there is an intruder. I have large dogs for that. They WILL let me know that someone who should NOT be is in the house, they will let me know WHERE in the house they are (mostly because the screams of pain and help will be coming from there), and more importantly...IF the intruder is violent and harms one of my dogs, or shoots one of my dogs...ALL doubt about whether or not the intruder has violent intent are now GONE, and the threat will be dealt with in a final manner. I love my dogs...but that's their job. I'd damned sure render aid to my dog, and once the dog is stable...I will do whatever I can to help the STOPPED INTRUDER.

My FIRST job, in the event of an intrusion is to get to my daughter. Period. Nothing else...get to my daughter while my wife forts up in the master bedroom, covering me from the doorway with her Benelli or her AR. I scoot down the hallway, grab the munchkin, and get back to the master bedroom. 911 will have been called and will be on speaker. Our home alarm EMERGENCY button will have been pressed, and the dogs SHOULD be snacking on Woody The Wonder Perp. IF the intruder makes it as far as the bedroom...let's just say it will NOT end pretty for them.

So...castle doctine explained and clarified a bit? Feel free to ask questions if I have failed to answer anything.

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Old 12-16-2011, 06:10 PM   #7
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I think Texas has the best castle doctrine law because you can even defend your neighbors property. I live in California so circumstances would have to be very bad for me to consider using a firearm to defend myself with.

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Old 12-16-2011, 06:20 PM   #8
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LOL @ "snacking on Woody the perp"

Hurt my dog for doing HIS job and God hath no fury....that would be akin to harming one of my chirens...I'll kill you on principle alone and not lose a moments sleep over it! Like my eldest says, "Man, I think you love that dog more than you love us, your kids." Then i say, "Well if you kids listened near as well as he does i might love you as much." Remember kiddies thats coming from a person that doesnt EVER want to be forced to kill ANYTHING!


(deer notwithstanding....The creator made them just soo dern tasty i am forced to kill 'em )

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Old 12-16-2011, 06:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiberius10721 View Post
I think Texas has the best castle doctrine law because you can even defend your neighbors property. I live in California so circumstances would have to be very bad for me to consider using a firearm to defend myself with.
At no point, in any state, are you allowed to use lethal force to defend PROPERTY!!!
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent View Post
At no point, in any state, are you allowed to use lethal force to defend PROPERTY!!!
WRONG.

In Texas, Arizona, and several other states you ARE specifcally allowed by statute AND court precedent to use deadly force in defense of property.
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