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-   -   LEOs, your biggest concern when carrying. Not everyone is on the bad side. (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f17/leos-your-biggest-concern-when-carrying-not-everyone-bad-side-37563/)

fastline 01-28-2011 09:18 PM

LEOs, your biggest concern when carrying. Not everyone is on the bad side.
 
I was going to ask in the LEO started thread but it is closed. It gave some advice which is almost common sense when pulled over in a car. I feel the easiest way to get shot is to actually use your weapon IMO and I would like to talk about it.

Example - LEOs called, ETA to scene, 2min, after call, armed suspect at store fires on someone, I instinctively fire on him but I know he has a second accomplice in the building and I am reluctant to just step back when I see red/blue because seconds count here. When they arrive on scene, they will see a "suspect", update that "shots fired", etc. All things that look real bad for me but if I just set down my weapon and lay down, I could get shot by the suspect. Matter of fact, if I have a rookie, trigger happy LEO, I could get shot by him just for having a gun.

Example 2 - I just witness a shoot out between one armed suspect and on LEO. LEO goes down and I feel obligated to draw and return fire to help the officer but I know more LEOs are in route and I am more worried about LEOs seeing a plain clothes with a gun and I might be an instant target since LEOs get real trigger happy when another LEO goes down.

Example 3 - My family and I are walking down town. Thug, dressed in nice clothes assaults us with a knife. I push him away long enough to draw, I order him on the ground, He draws a gun and returns fire just as a cop pulls up on scene. I am now left to return fire and risk being shot my the LEO that does not know the situation, or I don't fire and risk being shot by the suspect.


Obviously these are "just" examples and I hope to hell I never go through them. That being said, I am trying to describe very high tension situations where immediate disarming might be dangerous to me but I also do not want to get shot by an LEO either. Once they fire on me, they DO NOT stop until I am dead but I cannot exactly return fire. My only goal is to somehow get back out of the situation and let the LEOs take over.

Please understand too that I realize some situations need to be left to the LEOs for this very reason. I also know myself and if I see someone in a life/death situation and I can help, I will do it without hesitation.

c3shooter 01-28-2011 09:54 PM

Congratulations, my son- you have discovered the Kobayashi Maru syndrome.

For those not Star Trek fans, it is being placed in an unwinnable situation (to test the character of the student)

I will mention that at least one of your scenarios requires a LOOONG stretch (you have pull a knife, on me, I will have already have shot you before you pull any other weapon.)

Frankly, if I draw a firearm, I am buying room and time to run as fast as this fat little old man can run. I am not there to make an arrest, serve a capias, or enforce a restraining order. I am not a LEO (any more). I do not want to detain, restrain, or apprehend anyone.

Could there me circumstances that you must? Yeah- I can't walk or crawl. That can be the no-win I mentioned. Would start yelling HELP ME PLEASE as loud as I could at the first appearance of a badge, and listen to the nice young police officer that tells me to drop it (so it scratches- I am alive to get another)

sweeper22 01-28-2011 10:04 PM

Example - LEOs called, ETA to scene, 2min, after call, armed suspect at store fires on someone, I instinctively fire on him but I know he has a second accomplice in the building and I am reluctant to just step back when I see red/blue because seconds count here. When they arrive on scene, they will see a "suspect", update that "shots fired", etc. All things that look real bad for me but if I just set down my weapon and lay down, I could get shot by the suspect. Matter of fact, if I have a rookie, trigger happy LEO, I could get shot by him just for having a gun.

If you're engaging multiple suspects with a CCW (which could easily be inferior capacity/firepower to their weapons given the concealed part) it stands to reason that you'll do so from some level of cover, which should make you less of a target to anyone outside. Police don't just go flying into a confined space without thoroughly assessing the situation from a distance...that only happens in the movies.

Example 2 - I just witness a shoot out between one armed suspect and on LEO. LEO goes down and I feel obligated to draw and return fire to help the officer but I know more LEOs are in route and I am more worried about LEOs seeing a plain clothes with a gun and I might be an instant target since LEOs get real trigger happy when another LEO goes down.

If you're firing on this fella from outside his focused line of fire (he's focused on the LEO), he'll almost certainly GTFO if he's not hit. And even if he's some nut bent on waiting around for some odd reason, exactly how long would you expect such an exchange to continue? And if you're in his line of sight when you draw your weapon and you're trying to protect the officer? It'd make an awful lot of sense to take cover near the officer, which would also make it pretty clear whose side you were on if this was somehow ongoing as police rolled up.

Example 3 - My family and I are walking down town. Thug, dressed in nice clothes assaults us with a knife. I push him away long enough to draw, I order him on the ground, He draws a gun and returns fire just as a cop pulls up on scene. I am now left to return fire and risk being shot my the LEO that does not know the situation, or I don't fire and risk being shot by the suspect.

That's some pretty magical timing. LEO is highly unlikely to fire into you, flanked by your family...families rarely go mugging or people hunting together.

Now if the first cop to show up answers to the name "Callahan", you better duck.

fastline 01-28-2011 11:18 PM

Well, maybe my intent of this thread was not fully understood. I was not really wanting to make up seemingly impossible situations, bur rather understand if there are certain actions that might immediately tell the LEO, I ain't the bad guy here because obviously they roll up, they see a gun, the are going to draw and possibly fire without provocation and then write it up that I pointed the gun at them... However, I will give the LEO the BOTD for now.

Lets just shorted one up and say that I put a hole in someone right in front of a cop, without knowing the situation, the cop might instinctively pop me even though I realize that is not by the book. Identify target, then kill them...

I am looking for things like hold gun in the air, drop gun in the dirt, hold steady on my target like I friggin own the place, yell "CCL" (lol), etc. Again hoping the day never happens but.....

Jpyle 01-29-2011 12:01 AM

Maybe one of these will help...

http://shootingsafely.com/ccwbanner.jpg

fastline 01-29-2011 12:06 AM

ROFL..... Priceless....

Jpyle 01-29-2011 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastline (Post 431846)
ROFL..... Priceless....

Refreshing, someone that perceives and appreciates sarcasm...:rolleyes:

Smokin 01-29-2011 12:11 AM

Is it not enough to say that you would draw your gun only if your or another's life was in grave danger? In that case, you do what you need to do to eliminate the danger. Then you always answer to authorities. If you question your actions in any way then don't even begin to do them.

fastline 01-29-2011 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpyle (Post 431847)
Refreshing, someone that perceives and appreciates sarcasm...:rolleyes:

Hold on, let me get my whistle out before you shoot me....:D

Bighead 01-29-2011 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastline (Post 431735)
Example - LEOs called, ETA to scene, 2min, after call, armed suspect at store fires on someone, I instinctively fire on him but I know he has a second accomplice in the building and I am reluctant to just step back when I see red/blue because seconds count here. When they arrive on scene, they will see a "suspect", update that "shots fired", etc. All things that look real bad for me but if I just set down my weapon and lay down, I could get shot by the suspect. Matter of fact, if I have a rookie, trigger happy LEO, I could get shot by him just for having a gun.

First, with the level of scrutiny that police shootings come under, and the prevalence of civil litigation associated with any police shooting, no matter how justified, makes it unlikely you will encounter a "trigger happy" police officer.

In your first scenario, you incapacitate a suspect outside a business, and are concerned about a second suspect inside. At this point, I would retreat to cover, away from the point of entry to the business. If I could retreat an adequate distance with good cover, I would holster my firearm. In the circumstance that you're pinned behind a car in the parking lot, your attention is obviously going to be focused towards the business.

Body language and reactions speak volumes to responding officers. They don't just show up and start shooting anyone with a gun. What if you were an off-duty or plainclothes officer? Your focus towards the threat is the first indicator. Your response to police presence is another. My advice is to place your weapon on the ground and hold both hands with palms facing out.

If an officer challenges you, respond accordingly by announcing your victim status and making them aware of the continuing threat. "I am the victim. There is another bad guy inside the business." Do not expect the officers to immediately embrace you as a compatriot, you will most likely be treated as a potential danger until the situation is resolved, and you may be taken into custody.


Quote:

Example 2 - I just witness a shoot out between one armed suspect and on LEO. LEO goes down and I feel obligated to draw and return fire to help the officer but I know more LEOs are in route and I am more worried about LEOs seeing a plain clothes with a gun and I might be an instant target since LEOs get real trigger happy when another LEO goes down.
The likelihood of a prolonged gun battle is low, so this scenario would most likely be played out before responding police were on scene. If other police are already arriving on the scene, I would say keep your gun holstered and direct responding officers to the suspect.

If you end up in the unlikely situation of engaging the suspect as police are arriving, you're rolling dice. The police are arriving to a force-on-force scenario where they do not know who the criminal is. Verbalizing might give you the edge, yelling "Stop! Get Back! Don't Move!" loudly and repeatedly, protesting the situation and again establishing yourself as the victim. After the action, follow police instructions and do not protest if they want to secure you. It is for their safety until they can determine what happened. You know you're the good guy, they still have to figure that out.

Quote:

Example 3 - My family and I are walking down town. Thug, dressed in nice clothes assaults us with a knife. I push him away long enough to draw, I order him on the ground, He draws a gun and returns fire just as a cop pulls up on scene. I am now left to return fire and risk being shot my the LEO that does not know the situation, or I don't fire and risk being shot by the suspect.
If you draw on the guy with the knife, normally I would encourage you to shoot the guy with the knife. This is very much like scenario two, just without the starting action. The officer driving up sees several people huddled together, sees one person shoved, and then sees both people presenting firearms. You is the bad guy? This is another one for loud verbalization. As you shove the robber, be yelling "Stop! Get Back!" Lets say you knock the suspect down, and he only has the knife, continue verbalizing "Don't move! Drop the knife!" If the action follows your scenario, yell "Stop! Drop the gun!" Now the officer sees things differently, with you protesting the action and establishing yourself as the victim.

Quote:

Obviously these are "just" examples and I hope to hell I never go through them. That being said, I am trying to describe very high tension situations where immediate disarming might be dangerous to me but I also do not want to get shot by an LEO either. Once they fire on me, they DO NOT stop until I am dead but I cannot exactly return fire. My only goal is to somehow get back out of the situation and let the LEOs take over.
Safety is not guaranteed, and tragically there have been situations where police officers have killed other police officers in the heat of action. It is not unreasonable to assume that you could be perceived as a threat and be fired upon by well intentioned police officers. As we've discussed, try to seek cover, and secure your weapon or place it safely on the ground when police arrive on the scene. If you're still in proximity to the action, hold your hands palms out in the universal surrender position. Make sure to verbalize in an attempt to establish yourself as the victim. Make sure you communicate with responding to police to alert them to any continuing threat. And don't take it personal if initially the police secure you at the scene, even witnesses get thrown in backseats behind the cage.


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