Introducing Pepper Spray In a Gun Fight
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:21 AM   #1
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I know this IS my first post but I read some posts about a similar topic and wanted to add my $.02
I'de add that I lost someone who I considered a good man, citizen, volunteer law enforcement officer and teacher. He ran into some hard times and possibly made SOME bad decisions but on a trip to the local chain pharmacy he encountered another CHP holder... A CHP holder who I believe overreacted and did in fact violate law. There was a dispute between my guy we'll call (j) and the other CHP holder over place in line. The aggressor made some threatening statements. J OC'd the aggressor after the aggressor approached him and made some threatening statements...I have this info on good source... but j pursued him after OC'ing him and the aggressor stated he couldn't see and became afraid as my guy stayed on him basically "calling him out" and challenging him while insinuating he could finish the job.
The "other" individual drew down and fired several rounds proving almost immediately fatal.

I guess my point is I don't feel like civilians need to be exercising use of force continuum like LEO's
I am a former Federal LEO who's very very supportive of CHP holders and to a lesser degree open carry ....as CHP holders have gone through the process to show proficiency and the willingness to submit to societies rules on concealed carry and the more thorough background. Furthermore while I understand the desire some open carry folks have to shatter the stigmas of guns in public It needs to be a process...not a expectation of overnight change in perception.
More importantly OC MOST often causes ALL involved to experience SOME level of discomfort. You inadvertently inject an element that can negatively affect your ability to shoot accurately and potentially obscure the sight of potential witness's, innocent bystanders and responding LEO's....and it could be argued that if you had time to deploy OC you had time withdrawal from the fight. I've read SO many wise folks here repeatedly comment that DISCHARGING your firearm has lifelong ramifications like it or not. Ethically, Morally, Emotionally, Financially, from a public perception standpoint and the fear that will always for the rest of your life follow you that should you be under the influence and make a machismo statement or even just an off the cuff comment to a stranger that recognizes your picture from the news story about your actions ....which is somehow repeated to the city prosecutor at a later time that somehow causes him to reconsider the case and leads to your arrest and prosecution for the shooting.

I'm attaching a link to the story....there's a plethora of facts in this case to consider that occurred AFTER we worked together in the Sheriffs Office in 2005/6 where he was a fantastic, reliable and dedicated public servant. Regardless it goes to show that things like OC'ing someone over a perceived dispute or incident you may NOT have all the facts and can significantly alter where you stand legally.
My friend left a family/children behind over what ultimately should of just NEVER occurred. I know some additional info but will wait for trial to conclude prior to commenting. Suffice it to say I think he was angry about some things but was not a nut, extremist, radical, bigot or psycho.... There are some very interesting facts that will be revealed at trial.

Generally speaking I just thought this might be a case study for some and I really don't want to see the 2A cause hurt or another good man or woman lose their life over a stupid stupid issue.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/08/linecutting-fight-prompted-fatal-rite-aid-shooting




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Old 03-25-2014, 04:30 AM   #2
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well welcome to FTF. if you plan on sticking around awhile, stop over in the Introductions Section and say hello to everyone.

first of all, i'm sorry about your friend. sounds to me from what i read, that two people let their emotions get the better of them and now one is dead.

i am pretty sure there were some things that went on that no one will know about or talk about. sounds like a situation that got out of control very quickly and someone responded with deadly force. in no way does that mean one party is less guilty or more guilty than the other.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:08 AM   #3
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"J OC'd the aggressor after the aggressor approached him and made some threatening statements...I have this info on good source... but j pursued him after OC'ing him and the aggressor stated he couldn't see and became afraid as my guy stayed on him basically "calling him out" and challenging him while insinuating he could finish the job.
The "other" individual drew down and fired several rounds proving almost immediately fatal."

Sounds like your buddy made a serious mistake. Don't see what this has to do with OC or CC. Your buddy screwed the pooch when he pursued the guy.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:18 PM   #4
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Your friend made a really bad decision by deciding to pursue someone who was trying to get away from him instead of identifying himself as law enforcement and making an arrest for the threats.

If he was verbally threatened by someone he should have called for uniformed officers and had the man arrested, plain and simple.

From your account, it sounds like he died as a result of his own egregiously bad decisions… and for what? Someone getting in front of him in line at the convenience store? It would have cost him an extra minute of his time at most.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:37 PM   #5
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I'm posting from my mobile so I can't quote but generally I agree with all the comments.... Pursuing the other man WAS aggressive and ultimately what cost him his life... More importantly though take notice that even the man who was sprayed SHOULD have retreated when being presented with (J) brandishing his firearm.
With regards to J being law enforcement .... Keep in mind he was NO LONGER LE....
He certainly carried himself and was aggressive LIKE how LE MIGHT respond to someone brandishing at him.

In reality as I said ....WHEN I had worked with J : Mr. Colorado....he had NEVER been anything but professional and courteous so based on my conversation with folks who were THERE at the incident it was reported to police that Colorado was unaware of Benn being in line and that Benn was the FIRST to brandish....the way I see it if J had felt in danger he should have met force with equal....trying to employ the use of force continuum that they beat into our heads as LEO just won't work as a civilian CC.
Again I simply wanted to provide this story as a potential FFT or case study....Mr. Benn will likely be convicted based on my experience with the Norfolk Courts System.
The Norfolk Commonwealths Attorney Greg Underwood who by the way was just recently arrested by Virginia State Police for DUI,Reckless Driving and Carrying Concealed while under the influence.......has a very high conviction rate. Mr. Benn has a very high hurdle to clear again based on my discussion with friends in Norfolk PD

It really is a tough case for me for several reasons


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Old 03-25-2014, 03:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrygump View Post
I'm posting from my mobile so I can't quote but generally I agree with all the comments.... Pursuing the other man WAS aggressive and ultimately what cost him his life... More importantly though take notice that even the man who was sprayed SHOULD have retreated when being presented with (J) brandishing his firearm.
With regards to J being law enforcement .... Keep in mind he was NO LONGER LE....
He certainly carried himself and was aggressive LIKE how LE MIGHT respond to someone brandishing at him.

In reality as I said ....WHEN I had worked with J : Mr. Colorado....he had NEVER been anything but professional and courteous so based on my conversation with folks who were THERE at the incident it was reported to police that Colorado was unaware of Benn being in line and that Benn was the FIRST to brandish....the way I see it if J had felt in danger he should have met force with equal....trying to employ the use of force continuum that they beat into our heads as LEO just won't work as a civilian CC.
Again I simply wanted to provide this story as a potential FFT or case study....Mr. Benn will likely be convicted based on my experience with the Norfolk Courts System.
The Norfolk Commonwealths Attorney Greg Underwood who by the way was just recently arrested by Virginia State Police for DUI,Reckless Driving and Carrying Concealed while under the influence.......has a very high conviction rate. Mr. Benn has a very high hurdle to clear again based on my discussion with friends in Norfolk PD

It really is a tough case for me for several reasons


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I understand that you're only relaying a story about your friend and his situation, but you're not helping improve the general impression that the public has of law enforcement and the criminal justice system.

So the man who would have prosecuted the case involving the man who murdered your friend was recently arrested for carrying a weapon while under the influence and driving like a drunk?

Sometimes you think you know people and then they do things that you never expected them to do.

I would hope LE would understand the meaning of the words "peace officer". If you want to be aggressive, join the military. If you want to be a peace officer, be mindful of how your response will make matters worse or de-escalate the situation, whether someone is pointing a weapon at you or not.

This is just something to keep in the back of your mind, but just because you pull a gun out doesn't mean everyone you meet is going to run and hide.
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:17 PM   #7
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I am sorry about your friend but if somebody sprayed me with pepper spray for no reason and made threats I would have protected myself and ended the situation. I doubt I would have even let it get to the point I got sprayed. The guy who died sounds like he was somewhat of a nut in all honesty. Also what happened in his career that caused him to be terminated?
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:15 PM   #8
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To all:

Please don't think that my friendship with him IN ANY way indicates that I agree with or support his actions in this scenario that occurred...really quite the opposite. I have great respect for him as my friend and co worker. I only say this because I seem to detect folks are misunderstanding my position.

To nchunt: The story really got strange AFTER he left Chesapeake....I know he was terminated from Norfolk City Sheriffs Office as a deputy and was attending school full time when he joined the Chesapeake Sheriffs Auxiliary where I was. In auxiliary our function was primarily working corrections on the weekend and special event staffing and security at city events. We were discouraged from being involved in ANY off duty incidents AND doing anything ON DUTY besides counseling or verbal warnings unless absolutely necessary.
Here in Va. Our Sheriffs are elected in partisan races and probably 70% of our local jurisdictions have police departments that are the PRIMARY law enforcement agency...The Sheriff can do as little as only provide court security and civil process to his county/city or could provide all services including Jail,Policing,Court Security,Civil Process and Transportation.

Sorry for getting off topic. So Colorado was attending College full time to become a teacher but enjoyed law enforcement so he volunteered. His career in teaching came to an end when he went to Virginia Beach Public Schools Admin HQ (He obtained employment as a high school teacher in Virginia Beach upon completing his college work).
And apparently threatened suicide to the office staff....withdrew a pistol and held it at his head until Virginia Beach Police was able to talk him down several hours later.
I had NEVER seen him display ANYTHING like this in my interaction with him. However when he WAS assigned to work several details with me he WAS very aggressive or some might use the term Gung Ho.
As I understood it the above incident ended his teaching career. I think that was in 2010....I hadn't spoken to him since 2008 and am very unclear on what he was doing for employment after that or why he still had or was CC......or why he still had access to the handguns.
Like I said he went from being a fine deputy to being nearly a convicted criminal and having a complete breakdown within just a matter of months. Then to my surprise waking to find this event as breaking news.

I'm more apt now to always letting friends and certain co workers know I'm always available and willing to lend an ear or help in any way possible as I don't want I lose another to a tragedy like this that was completely avoidable and unnecessary .


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Old 03-26-2014, 03:28 PM   #9
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So, police officers knew that your friend was suicidal (by dint of the fact that he threatened to kill himself in front of a number of government employees). Somehow, because of his law enforcement officer status or former law enforcement officer status, he was permitted to continue carrying a concealed weapon or broke the law regarding prohibited persons or somehow obtained clearance to continue carrying a concealed weapon?

And you're worried about civilians exercising the "use of force continuum"? I'm trying to determine how the behavior of either two of the men involved in the incident that ultimately ended your friend's life was better than the other but I can't seem to make that determination.

Your friend should have been in a psychiatric facility and probably never should have had access to weapons of any kind.

Two lives were ruined over a good bit of nothing, but you can't stop people from making bad decisions.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:56 PM   #10
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First off I think Colorado simply "decided" he wouldn't surrender his firearms...which honestly concerns me...I know of NO law currently on the books in Va that directs or permits anyone to seize the firearms of ANYONE disqualified from purchasing one. The code DOES direct the CC permit to be surrendered to the court of issuance once convicted or committed (upon release) and the code is clear that possession after disqualification is also a felony but nothing about disposition and clearly from THIS case no enforcement whatsoever of the law. Perhaps had we had some enforcement my friend might still be alive...it's also clear we cannot rely on THESE folks to self comply.
To be honest we need to have a "mop up" group of law enforcement to actively cross reference new convictions and committals and said action triggers research to see if they already have firearms...if so enforce provisions that make possession of firearms by a disqualified individual a felony....perhaps first a letter to the individual to sell off or transfer the firearms to a party or family member outside their home and to furthermore require the private party to affirm the transfer under oath or if the buyer is a dealer to confirm the transfer in.

With regards to the use of force continuum...again all I was trying to convey was that the continuum should never apply to CC citizens since the laws have essentially made any display where there is no discharge a crime. You see this type of structuring in several states..where if you draw you better shoot and I simply feel like we need not award points for firing....if there's a legitimate threat that abates when you draw down there should be SOME type of exemption or relief provided from criminal charges of brandishing laws.


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