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interesting occurrence tonight


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Old 05-04-2013, 06:31 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawk

Sounds like wannabes who want to appear as though their junk is big. Concealed is always better. If a shooting occurred and a gun man noticed these idiots open carrying like that, they would be the first one shot.

What people don't know has a better chance of saving your life.
Please explain why concealed is ALWAYS better? And since when to cops shoot persons with holstered weapons first?
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:25 AM   #52
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An OC rally is one thing, but in a EDC situation, the less attention you bring to yourself, the better. If the people in the theater, mall, etc. notice you, a gunman will notice you. Stealth is important. Walking around like its the Wild West in that situation is a little excessive. Seriously, these guys are packing like I've seen IDPA shooters. Then you throw in Handcuffs? Come on. Sounds like a wannabe LEO who doesn't want to put in the work to actually be one.

Aka a wannabe.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Hey Squawk... let me guess... You also believed that the streets would run red with blood in any State that passed CCW? Right?

I understand the "tactical assumption" of your claim but I seriously doubt any thug would have the balls to engage openly armed victims.

We've all heard others parroting this risk but I've yet to see a single situation where an OC citizen was accosted by anyone "besides poorly trained LEO's".

If anyone can show me a credible story backing up this "first to be shot" claim... I'd love to see it.

Tack
As sad as it is, thugs do it all the time. They shoot at cops, don't they?
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:10 PM   #54
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I open carried regularly when I lived in AZ. That was a culture and environment that was used to seeing people open carrying. I would not recommend people open carry in environments where it makes the general populace nervous.

And this appears to be more than just open carry making folks nervous.
Scott... I respect your position and also used to frown on activity that makes other nervous but when it comes to 2A and OC, I've done a 180.

The incompetence and lack of interest displayed by most civilians and LEO's in these "nervous" locations can only be effectively challenged through "shocking" behavior.

Our adversaries have used this tactic for decades to great effect and I see no reason not to respond with similar "shocking" conservative behavior like LAC's walking about armed.

Yes the sheep will bleat... and yes Cops will respond but that is what is necessary to effect social change. Sheep will never question their gun bigotry unless they are force to do so by openly armed members of society and Jurisdictions will never stop useless "investigations" unless the volume of calls threatens to overwhelm the system.

Once that "tipping" point is reached, politicians will have only 2 choices, ban OC at the State level... or decide to "properly train" dispatchers and LEO's.

California is the example of a State that "backfired" but that's OK. The large
Metro areas of CA, IL, and MI are already contrasting examples of why anti CCW policies fail to deter crime and OC bans will show the same poor results compared to the even steeper drops in violent crime we WILL see in the Metro areas of States that welcome OC.

America is the melting pot of ideas with 50 individual state laboratories... I'm confident our ideas will carry the day if we only have the courage to exercise them.

Tack

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Old 05-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #55
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just some thinking and observations on my part. when more people are using OC, and it becomes more common for people doing it everyday, and the publics perception of it changes from fear to acceptance, that's when it will have changed.

i have to admit, even my perception of OC is changing somewhat. though i'm not seeing it as optimum way of carrying, but from a stance of our 2nd amendment rights and freedoms, i do support it. as long as it's done responsibily.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:03 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
As sad as it is, thugs do it all the time. They shoot at cops, don't they?
Yes they do... but I think we're comparing apples and oranges here.

Hardened criminals who are willing to shoot at cops are either guys who have nothing to loose... or there mental and choose to shoot because in some way they feel justified defending themselves. Neither typically "go off" on the public and "only" go off when confronted/cornered by LEO's.

The deterent value applies with the guy looking to hold up the quickie mart and the coward mass shooter. These are the guys who pose a threat to the citizenry and both have proven to be detered by the possibility of armed conflict.

Tack
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:17 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
An OC rally is one thing, but in a EDC situation, the less attention you bring to yourself, the better. If the people in the theater, mall, etc. notice you, a gunman will notice you. Stealth is important. Walking around like its the Wild West in that situation is a little excessive. Seriously, these guys are packing like I've seen IDPA shooters. Then you throw in Handcuffs? Come on. Sounds like a wannabe LEO who doesn't want to put in the work to actually be one.

Aka a wannabe.
Again... "tactically" I agree with you and have carried a concealed EDC daily
for 17 years because I'm more comfortable being incognito.

However, the prevailing wisdom you continue to parrot is simply NOT backed up with ANY real world examples.

Show me one single instance in the United States where an armed citizen carrying OC was gunned down "first" by a criminal???

Had this ever happened the media would have made it bigger than Columbine, Aurora, and Newtown combined... and I've never seen it.

The only "near" example that comes to mind is the 4 "uniformed officers" who were gunned down in a Lakewood WA coffee shop about 2 years ago... But again, the hardened thug who committed these murders was a violent ex con on parole with a big hard on for Cops. His case was an extreeme anomolly and I doubt even he would have gone after an OC citizen.

I strongly suspect that in his mind, he had been seriously abused by Lakewood PD and came back here specifically to extract his revenge.


Tack
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:35 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Yes they do... but I think we're comparing apples and oranges here.

Hardened criminals who are willing to shoot at cops are either guys who have nothing to loose... or there mental and choose to shoot because in some way they feel justified defending themselves. Neither typically "go off" on the public and "only" go off when confronted/cornered by LEO's.

The deterent value applies with the guy looking to hold up the quickie mart and the coward mass shooter. These are the guys who pose a threat to the citizenry and both have proven to be detered by the possibility of armed conflict.

Tack
I don't think it's an apple and oranges thing. I think it's more a different viewpoint on the same subject. Yes, I agree armed citizens could be a deterrent to crime. I also believe that armed police officers can be a deterrent to crime. Unfortunately I also believe that some of the more desperate criminals are going to do the crime in spite of the fact that there is an armed citizen or an armed guard or police officer present. Given that belief I think it gives me a tactical advantage if nobody knows I am armed until it's too late. An element of surprise if you will.

In my opinion that element of surprise is the only tactical advantage I have. I don't have Motorola to notify 200 of my buddies about what's going on. I don't have a dispatcher that knows where I am to check up on me. There is no threat of stiffer sentences against him for messing with me. The thug knows he won't have every cop in the country looking for him 24/7 until he's caught just because he messed with me. There's really nothing to keep them from shooting me. I'm a nobody.

There are times when you have to look around you, see what's going on, and decide whether you can win or not. It's an ever changing situation. What may be a dead bang loser to start with can turn to your advantage if you are not perceived as a threat. If you advertise the fact that you are armed the chance to pick your battle is taken out of your hands. Whether he shoots you or not, if he knows you are armed he will not divert his attention from you until you are either disarmed or shot.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:11 PM   #59
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Doc...

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said here. There is cetainly a tactical advantage in being "concealed" however...

I think all of us CCW guys, myself included, have allowed this fear/perception of getting shot first to sway our decisions when there is NO evidence of it happening... EVER.

Does that mean I could not happen? Of course not... but I do think reasonable gun people can look at this and reach the reasonable conclusion that the type of criminals who pose a risk to us are motivated by desires that do NOT include victims shooting back and are therefore much more likely to pick a softer target than risk injury or death by engaging an openly armed citizen.

Criminals in general only attack when they think they have BOTH, the element of surprise AND a monopoly on "force".

Being openly armed IMHO, deters aggression by advertising to the criminal that his monopoly of force has been negated.

Tack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
I don't think it's an apple and oranges thing. I think it's more a different viewpoint on the same subject. Yes, I agree armed citizens could be a deterrent to crime. I also believe that armed police officers can be a deterrent to crime. Unfortunately I also believe that some of the more desperate criminals are going to do the crime in spite of the fact that there is an armed citizen or an armed guard or police officer present. Given that belief I think it gives me a tactical advantage if nobody knows I am armed until it's too late. An element of surprise if you will.

In my opinion that element of surprise is the only tactical advantage I have. I don't have Motorola to notify 200 of my buddies about what's going on. I don't have a dispatcher that knows where I am to check up on me. There is no threat of stiffer sentences against him for messing with me. The thug knows he won't have every cop in the country looking for him 24/7 until he's caught just because he messed with me. There's really nothing to keep them from shooting me. I'm a nobody.

There are times when you have to look around you, see what's going on, and decide whether you can win or not. It's an ever changing situation. What may be a dead bang loser to start with can turn to your advantage if you are not perceived as a threat. If you advertise the fact that you are armed the chance to pick your battle is taken out of your hands. Whether he shoots you or not, if he knows you are armed he will not divert his attention from you until you are either disarmed or shot.

Last edited by Tackleberry1; 05-04-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:37 PM   #60
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I can't see us reaching a happy conclusion on this subject in general, so if it's okay with you, let's call it a draw. I certainly don't oppose open carry under most circumstances. I just don't see it for me for several reasons. Besides the ones I mentioned in my previous post, there is a matter of health for me. With my heart disease I have serious doubts about whether I could fight someone over possession of my gun. For that reason alone keeping it hidden is the wiser choice for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Doc...

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said here. There is cetainly a tactical advantage in being "concealed" however...

I think all of us CCW guys, myself included, have allowed this fear/perception of getting shot first to sway our decisions when there is NO evidence of it happening... EVER.

Does that mean I could not happen? Of course not... but I do think reasonable gun people can look at this and reach the reasonable conclusion that the type of criminals who pose a risk to us are motivated by desires that do NOT include victims shooting back and are therefore much more likely to pick a softer target than risk injury or death by engaging an openly armed citizen.

Criminals in general only attack when they think they have BOTH, the element of surprise AND a monopoly on "force".

Being openly armed IMHO, deters aggression by advertising to the criminal that his monopoly of force has been negated.

Tack
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