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Old 09-06-2011, 08:46 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gh0zt36 View Post
Interesting point of view.. see , it's really a shame there isn't a standardized CCW class instead of just different instructors points of view. cause at the time his point sounded solid. which was you want to stop the assault only because you wouldn't want to have been seen as using excessive force if there was anyway you could have just stopped the perp's assault. but you as well raise a good point with you're above statement. These two arguements are exactly why there should be a standardized class.

I mean my instructor was former law enforcement as well and if 2 leos have such an oposing view. what chance do I have in court?
Okay...let's take it a step at a time.

First: Laws on self defense vary from state-to-state, and can even be different from city-to-city. The prosecutors in a given jurisdiction WILL even differ on their attitudes on self defense, and thus what happens in MY town WILL be very very different from what happens in a libtard bastion of cotton candy and lollipops like Tucson. So, standard CCW and self defense training is not possible. BUT...common sense is universal, though many have none, or choose not to use it.

Second:

You are confronted by a goblin. For this mental excercise, it is on a public street, where you have every right to be. It is not what one would call a "dangerous" part of town, or somewhere you "shouldn't" be. You are toodling down the street, minding your own business. Hopefully you are scanning that which is going on around you, you are aware of potential goblins, traffic, blind corners so you don't walk too near and risk getting way-layed, etc....In other words, you are practicing common sense street skills.

A goblin walks up to you and asks for a match, the time, a spare cigarette, you pick it. You lock eyes on him, and answer politely, yet firmly, that you are not in posession of whatever he is asking for and bid him "a nice day", and attempt to move along.

He then moves closer and blocks your "avenue of retreat and avoidance". You are now already IN a defensive scenario. Your space has been violated, and your next physical move, may very well be aggressively physical in nature. You use all your verbal skills to avoid and de-escalate.

You say in a loud clear voice "I don't want trouble!" You say this NOT because you believe it will make him stop, or change his ways, but you say it so any potential WITNESSES will hear you say it and be able to testify to responding officers that YOU did all you could to avoid trouble, and that YOU were in fact, the VICTIM.

He is NOT a regular panhandler, who can be brushed aside. You are facing a goblin with bad intentions.

You are in a place where, though you maybe ready for conflict, you can't act too quickly, but you will have to act QUICKLY ENOUGH. Your pulse is racing, your body is experiencing a HUGE adrenaline dump, your knees may be shaking (this is OKAY, it is a signal from your body that the motor is fueled and ready to go to the redline IF you need it).

BUT....along with all this adrenaline...your fine motor skills just went out the window and into the dumpster.

The assault has now begun, or at least the goblin has made a move that A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD BELIEVE HAS PLACED THEM IN IMMINENT DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM. Let us say he has verbalized to you that he has a knife or a gun, and intends to use it on you IF you don't give up your money.

You haven't SEEN the alleged weapon, but your experience and training leads you to reasonably believe that the movement he is making is consistent with that of drawing a weapon to be used against you.

You make your move. You step back while you draw your defensive sidearm, and get the best grip on it that you can. As you get the muzzle on target (or as close as you are able to depending upon proximity to the goblin, and your ability to remain IN CONTROL OF YOUR WEAPON), he pulls a black shiny object out of his pocket.

GUN! GUN! GUN! is what your mind is SCREAMING at you.

Your weapon is NOT at full extension because the goblin to too close. You don't have the time or space to get into your preferred "perfect shooting stance or tactical dude shoot-em-up position". You have only cleared leather, and your gun is next to your strong side rib cage in a retention position with the pistol canted slightly to the side so as to NOT foul your slide on your own body, and you fire.

You put a round into the goblin's upper thoracic cavity. In fact, you have probably put several rounds into him, as you don't KNOW how many rounds you have fired because you are in FIGHT OR FLIGHT mode, literally fighting for YOUR survival. You are using GROSS MOTOR SKILLS because that is ALL YOU HAVE to work with now. The rounds enter just above and to HIS left of his navel and traverse upward through his lung and into his heart (the thoracic cavity).

The fight STOPS when one of your rounds destroys his spine, therefore shutting down his central nervous system.

The goblin drops to the pavement and a realistic looking toy pistol clatters to the ground next to him.

You step back, scan the area. You ask any and all witnesses "Are you okay?" You want to be viewed as a good guy by the witnesses. Now YOU better be the one on the phone calling for police AND an ambulance. You want to be the one in control of how YOU are described to officers who are on their way to a "SHOTS FIRED, SUBJECT DOWN" call.

At this point, you WILL be in shock, or close to it. You have just done the unthinkable...you may have just ended the life of another alleged human being. Remember this phrase: "He threatened to shoot/stab me, and he pulled what I believed to be a gun/knife, and I was FORCED TO FIRE to defend my life."

Okay...so the actual critical incident is over. You are on scene, you have told responding officers only the minimum of information:

"Officer...that man lying there pulled a gun/knife after threatening to kill me, and I was forced to fire. The gun/knife is lying next to his hand, and those people saw what happened. I want to cooperate fully, but I am REALLY shaken up right now, and I don't want to say more until I have my attorney present."

At this point, you have pointed out critical evidence SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM OF SELF DEFENSE that the responding officer WILL include in his report, and the homicide detectives who actually invesitgate the incident will in ALL PROBABILITY "clear you at the scene" based upon the evidence before them, and it will be pre-emptively ruled justified by the local DA, and dropped with no further incident. Yes, you MAY have to sit through a pro-forma chat with a DA with your lawyer, but at that time...things should go your way because YOU HANDLED it properly, and cops know this. We see this. Homicide dicks deal with it daily, and know a scumbag when they see it. Movies and television asshattery aside. Unless something goes TERRIBLY wrong with the way you handle it, or you get a DA with a hard on, you won't be arrested.

So...the smoke has cleared. Guess what...you DID NOT HAVE THE TIME, SPACE, ABILITY, OR FINE MOTOR CONTROL to shoot the subject's "gun arm" or wound him. You DID, in all reasonable fact, SHOOT TO STOP the threat. Period. You delivered no coup de grace head shot once the subject was down. You acted in a manner consistent with SAVING YOUR LIFE in the face of an immediate threat of death or grave bodily harm.

If it sets your mind at ease...YOU didn't choose this. You didn't SHOOSE to "kill" anyone. The subject MADE THE CHOICE to put you in immiment danger of death or grave bodily harm, and therefore CHOSE whatever consequence that HIS actions would bring down upon him. HE forced YOU to defend yourself. Remember, you were simply going about your business, doing no harm along the way. You tried all you could to avoid confrontation. Witnesses saw this, and testified to it. You are legally AND morally clean on this one....whether or not the subject died as a result of the gunshot woulds he received WHILE IN THE COMMISSION OF A VIOLENT ASSAULT.

Shooting to wound is NOT sound doctrine for a street cop, or an armed civilian. It is not practical in any force continuum because you will be impaired by your own body's reaction to the threat. Any instructor teaching that doctrine is only training you to fail.

And IF you were paying attention...the "toy gun" that clattered to the pavement was for ALL intents an purposes a REAL FIREAMRM CAPABLE OF KILLING YOU. If a reasonable person would believe that it was a REAL gun, it IS a real gun.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaLawman

Okay...let's take it a step at a time.

First: Laws on self defense vary from state-to-state, and can even be different from city-to-city. The prosecutors in a given jurisdiction WILL even differ on their attitudes on self defense, and thus what happens in MY town WILL be very very different from what happens in a libtard bastion of cotton candy and lollipops like Tucson. So, standard CCW and self defense training is not possible. BUT...common sense is universal, though many have none, or choose not to use it.

Second:

You are confronted by a goblin. For this mental excercise, it is on a public street, where you have every right to be. It is not what one would call a "dangerous" part of town, or somewhere you "shouldn't" be. You are toodling down the street, minding your own business. Hopefully you are scanning that which is going on around you, you are aware of potential goblins, traffic, blind corners so you don't walk too near and risk getting way-layed, etc....In other words, you are practicing common sense street skills.

A goblin walks up to you and asks for a match, the time, a spare cigarette, you pick it. You lock eyes on him, and answer politely, yet firmly, that you are not in posession of whatever he is asking for and bid him "a nice day", and attempt to move along.

He then moves closer and blocks your "avenue of retreat and avoidance". You are now already IN a defensive scenario. Your space has been violated, and your next physical move, may very well be aggressively physical in nature. You use all your verbal skills to avoid and de-escalate.

You say in a loud clear voice "I don't want trouble!" You say this NOT because you believe it will make him stop, or change his ways, but you say it so any potential WITNESSES will hear you say it and be able to testify to responding officers that YOU did all you could to avoid trouble, and that YOU were in fact, the VICTIM.

He is NOT a regular panhandler, who can be brushed aside. You are facing a goblin with bad intentions.

You are in a place where, though you maybe ready for conflict, you can't act too quickly, but you will have to act QUICKLY ENOUGH. Your pulse is racing, your body is experiencing a HUGE adrenaline dump, your knees may be shaking (this is OKAY, it is a signal from your body that the motor is fueled and ready to go to the redline IF you need it).

BUT....along with all this adrenaline...your fine motor skills just went out the window and into the dumpster.

The assault has now begun, or at least the goblin has made a move that A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD BELIEVE HAS PLACED THEM IN IMMINENT DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM. Let us say he has verbalized to you that he has a knife or a gun, and intends to use it on you IF you don't give up your money.

You haven't SEEN the alleged weapon, but your experience and training leads you to reasonably believe that the movement he is making is consistent with that of drawing a weapon to be used against you.

You make your move. You step back while you draw your defensive sidearm, and get the best grip on it that you can. As you get the muzzle on target (or as close as you are able to depending upon proximity to the goblin, and your ability to remain IN CONTROL OF YOUR WEAPON), he pulls a black shiny object out of his pocket.

GUN! GUN! GUN! is what your mind is SCREAMING at you.

Your weapon is NOT at full extension because the goblin to too close. You don't have the time or space to get into your preferred "perfect shooting stance or tactical dude shoot-em-up position". You have only cleared leather, and your gun is next to your strong side rib cage in a retention position with the pistol canted slightly to the side so as to NOT foul your slide on your own body, and you fire.

You put a round into the goblin's upper thoracic cavity. In fact, you have probably put several rounds into him, as you don't KNOW how many rounds you have fired because you are in FIGHT OR FLIGHT mode, literally fighting for YOUR survival. You are using GROSS MOTOR SKILLS because that is ALL YOU HAVE to work with now. The rounds enter just above and to HIS left of his navel and traverse upward through his lung and into his heart (the thoracic cavity).

The fight STOPS when one of your rounds destroys his spine, therefore shutting down his central nervous system.

The goblin drops to the pavement and a realistic looking toy pistol clatters to the ground next to him.

You step back, scan the area. You ask any and all witnesses "Are you okay?" You want to be viewed as a good guy by the witnesses. Now YOU better be the one on the phone calling for police AND an ambulance. You want to be the one in control of how YOU are described to officers who are on their way to a "SHOTS FIRED, SUBJECT DOWN" call.

At this point, you WILL be in shock, or close to it. You have just done the unthinkable...you may have just ended the life of another alleged human being. Remember this phrase: "He threatened to shoot/stab me, and he pulled what I believed to be a gun/knife, and I was FORCED TO FIRE to defend my life."

Okay...so the actual critical incident is over. You are on scene, you have told responding officers only the minimum of information:

"Officer...that man lying there pulled a gun/knife after threatening to kill me, and I was forced to fire. The gun/knife is lying next to his hand, and those people saw what happened. I want to cooperate fully, but I am REALLY shaken up right now, and I don't want to say more until I have my attorney present."

At this point, you have pointed out critical evidence SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM OF SELF DEFENSE that the responding officer WILL include in his report, and the homicide detectives who actually invesitgate the incident will in ALL PROBABILITY "clear you at the scene" based upon the evidence before them, and it will be pre-emptively ruled justified by the local DA, and dropped with no further incident. Yes, you MAY have to sit through a pro-forma chat with a DA with your lawyer, but at that time...things should go your way because YOU HANDLED it properly, and cops know this. We see this. Homicide dicks deal with it daily, and know a scumbag when they see it. Movies and television asshattery aside. Unless something goes TERRIBLY wrong with the way you handle it, or you get a DA with a hard on, you won't be arrested.

So...the smoke has cleared. Guess what...you DID NOT HAVE THE TIME, SPACE, ABILITY, OR FINE MOTOR CONTROL to shoot the subject's "gun arm" or wound him. You DID, in all reasonable fact, SHOOT TO STOP the threat. Period. You delivered no coup de grace head shot once the subject was down. You acted in a manner consistent with SAVING YOUR LIFE in the face of an immediate threat of death or grave bodily harm.

If it sets your mind at ease...YOU didn't choose this. You didn't SHOOSE to "kill" anyone. The subject MADE THE CHOICE to put you in immiment danger of death or grave bodily harm, and therefore CHOSE whatever consequence that HIS actions would bring down upon him. HE forced YOU to defend yourself. Remember, you were simply going about your business, doing no harm along the way. You tried all you could to avoid confrontation. Witnesses saw this, and testified to it. You are legally AND morally clean on this one....whether or not the subject died as a result of the gunshot woulds he received WHILE IN THE COMMISSION OF A VIOLENT ASSAULT.

Shooting to wound is NOT sound doctrine for a street cop, or an armed civilian. It is not practical in any force continuum because you will be impaired by your own body's reaction to the threat. Any instructor teaching that doctrine is only training you to fail.

And IF you were paying attention...the "toy gun" that clattered to the pavement was for ALL intents an purposes a REAL FIREAMRM CAPABLE OF KILLING YOU. If a reasonable person would believe that it was a REAL gun, it IS a real gun.
Great post, Lawman. Very interesting.

Zoey,
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:33 PM   #23
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Default First things first........

I'm lost on the post......Double tap.....Let someone else call 911 and go thru the all the hell......Oh lets not for get Revolvers don't leave behind spent casings.......

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Old 09-06-2011, 02:39 PM   #24
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Great advice from Robo and AZ Lawman. The presence of guys with LE experience and there willingness to share is one of the main reasons I value FTF.

With that said, I have a follow on scenario/question that's always concerned me.

Let's say your not dealing with 1 goblin but 3. A situation unfolds just as described in AZ Lawman's last hypothetical right up to the point were the goblin is on the ground...EXCEPT...his 2 buddies are still present and highly upset at you for dumping there 3rd amigo. They do not appear to be armed but are agitated, are not backing off, and are eying the downed goblins weapon?

I'm only asking for the LEO's advice on this. Don't need any John Wayne comments here.

TACK

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Old 09-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #25
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Great advice from Robo and AZ Lawman. The presence of guys with LE experience and there willingness to share is one of the main reasons I value FTF.

With that said, I have a follow on scenario/question that's always concerned me.

Let's say your not dealing with 1 goblin but 3. A situation unfolds just as described in AZ Lawman's last hypothetical right up to the point were the goblin is on the ground...EXCEPT...his 2 buddies are still present and highly upset at you for dumping there 3rd amigo. They do not appear to be armed but are agitated, are not backing off, and are eying the downed goblins weapon?

I'm only asking for the LEO's advice on this. Don't need any John Wayne comments here.

TACK
This can get a little tricky, but: Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote in his book "Holmes On Homicide" that:

"There is no time for detached reflection in the presence of an upraised knife."

Which means...as a part of the group that caused you the REASONABLE fear of death of grave bodily harm, they share the fate of the group.

The tricky part comes in here....you smoke the leader. You smoke another. You smoke yet another...now there is one left. You probably can't make a case for "disparity of force" when it is now one-to-one odds. That being said, if you have just smoked one, two, or several of his comrades, he is probably going to be trying his best to get out of range.

"Felony Murder" is also part of this. Say for example two scumbags are trying to rob you. You fire, and smoke one of them (unarmed). YOU are not guilty of murder, the ARMED MEMBER of the duo is now guilty of FELONY MURDER, as a criminal act in which HE was a party to caused a death...HE is responsible.

But, as with ANY self defense situation, be damned sure you HAVE to fire before you DO fire.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:21 PM   #26
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Thanks AZL, and yes on the "be damn sure part". I for one, would be more than happy to go to my death bed, "many years from now", having never needed to use my CCW.

Now let me go find some oak to rap my knuckles on a few times.

TACK

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Old 09-07-2011, 02:52 AM   #27
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If you have to shoot somebody the proper thing to do is make sure hes dead -
You shot to end the threat.

You are not EMS.


I MIGHT INCUR A SLIGHT MENTAL AFFLICTION, but I will not render first aid to anyone I just shot. I will watch him die.... ...
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:08 AM   #28
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From ArizonaLawman
"Your weapon is NOT at full extension because the goblin to too close. You don't have the time or space to get into your preferred "perfect shooting stance or tactical dude shoot-em-up position". You have only cleared leather, and your gun is next to your strong side rib cage in a retention position with the pistol canted slightly to the side so as to NOT foul your slide on your own body, and you fire.
You put a round into the goblin's upper thoracic cavity."

That is exactly how my shoot went down. We were issued Smith Model 15's then with the Federal 110gr +P+ jhp Treasury load. When I fired my one shot my triggerguard was against my right hip and I hit him in the sternum with my Streamlight SL-20 as I was backpedaling and he was charging me he made the second thrust with the knife & I fired as he was leaning into me.


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Old 09-07-2011, 04:30 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaLawman View Post
This can get a little tricky, but: Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote in his book "Holmes On Homicide" that:

"There is no time for detached reflection in the presence of an upraised knife."

Which means...as a part of the group that caused you the REASONABLE fear of death of grave bodily harm, they share the fate of the group.

The tricky part comes in here....you smoke the leader. You smoke another. You smoke yet another...now there is one left. You probably can't make a case for "disparity of force" when it is now one-to-one odds. That being said, if you have just smoked one, two, or several of his comrades, he is probably going to be trying his best to get out of range.

"Felony Murder" is also part of this. Say for example two scumbags are trying to rob you. You fire, and smoke one of them (unarmed). YOU are not guilty of murder, the ARMED MEMBER of the duo is now guilty of FELONY MURDER, as a criminal act in which HE was a party to caused a death...HE is responsible.

But, as with ANY self defense situation, be damned sure you HAVE to fire before you DO fire.
Didnt wanna quote that massive scenario AZ but thanks for that. too bad you couldnt have been my instructor. you just now went way farther into depth than than guy i paid 90$ to lol
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:52 AM   #30
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Lawman, the firearms training instructor of FTF sounds like a damn good plan. I have noticed people getting smarter around here!!! we have figured it out!

Zoey,

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