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Old 09-24-2011, 08:35 PM   #51
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Now a home invasion or burglary, if BG enters your residence and you double tap BG..it is automatically assumed that BG had the intent of doing grave bodily harm to whomever was dwelling inside said residence. Not much else is said, but if your on the street and confronted by BG there better be a "dangerous or deadly weapon" in possession by BG, "OR" u almost need to be half beaten to death before you can use deadly force with firearm..and not be initially charged with something. Like i said This is oklahoma

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Old 09-24-2011, 08:57 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by bountyhunter View Post
I believe you are wrong. Simple physics is that if a person continued to pursue me after being warned I was armed, It proves he is the aggressor and is not rational. If he strikes me even one time in the face or head, he can almost certainly injure me badly and maybe even render me unconscious where he could take my gun and kill myself or others.
Well simple physics and canon of law are not the same thing.

How many times in your life have you been punched? If the answer is one or more, I will assume that you survived, and suffered no "death or grave bodily harm". That you could conceivably be knocked unconscious and disarmed is not a reasonable fear. After all, that satellite that just fell to eart COULD have landed on your head...but it was not reasonable to think it was even a remote possibility.

A simple punch, even to the face or head does not meet the standard that a reasonable person would believe that they are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.

I have been hit many times in the coconut. I never died from it. I was never hit hard enough to even render me unconscious, let alone cause me grave bodily harm. So, I don't expect, even a punch that would break my nose and make me bleed like a stuck pig (pun intended) is going to do anything other than hurt for a few days. It certainly would NOT allow me the latitude in action to employ deadly force. I would only be justified in using ONLY that force which was neccessary to stop the assault. In this case, punch for punch, kick for kick...only enough to stop the assault. Introduce a knife, club, broken bottle, any instrument capable of causing death or grave bodily harm, then you are now in a lethal confrontation.

Look to the example of MMA fighters...they hit and GET hit on the order of hundreds maybe thousands of times more often and a WHOLE LOT HARDER in a year than the average guy or group of guys will get hit in a lifetime. How many have died as a result? How many are now drooling in their shoes in a wheelchair? Yes...they wear them little gloves...but I an betting one of those guys WITH gloves on will hit a metric-crapload harder than even a big, mean, dude with no gloves on. When I was 14 I got kicked on the bridge of my nose by an ill-tempered shod quarterhorse. I got kncked on my butt, but got right back up...and he kicked harder than anyone EVER hit me.

Don't bet your life or your freedom on a "might" defense.

Granted, if there are more than one (and think in terms of three or four attackers) you then have "disparity of force" which a reasonable person WOULD believe that they are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. If you are on the ground getting the boots put to you and stomped to within an inch of your life...ANY reasonable person would now agree that you are in mortal danger.

What is grave bodily harm? MOST places, grave bodily harm is permanently crippling injury.

Death is pretty self explanatory, unless you're a zombie, then you have other bigger problems.

Then we get to: It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

That is true unless you acted so stupidly that the 12 WILL find you guilty, and you WILL spend many long, lonely years in the pokey being used as a shower toy.

In all honesty, and all hyperbole aside, I hope you NEVER have to be in that situation. I also hope YOU aren't hoping you CAN be in that situation.

I am damned sure pro self defense, but you'd have one hell of a hard time convincing me to vote to aquit if you and another knucklehead of similar size got into a scrape, and you shot him because he punched you because you MIGHT have fallen and MIGHT have hit your head.

And IF you do get hit in the face, head, wherever, and you are still able to draw and fire accurately...my guess is that you haven't been very greiviously injured or fallen and hit your noggin...you are still able to function quite well, so that shoots your whole defense right in the keister (again pun intended).

I don't know who your instructor was, or if you have had any...but you were done a disservice by them to let you out of class believing that you would be right to shoot someone over a punch.

If someone brings a knife to the gun fight...he's getting shot. I may, and in all probability WILL get cut some, but he WILL get shot.

If someone brings a club or other impact weapon capable of crushing my skull to the fight...read above.

If someone brings a fist to a fight...I may get a bit of a whuppin'. Even if I win, I am going to be sore tomorrow. I am over 40 now, and KNOW I can't scrap like I used to even ten years ago...but I wouldn't be justified in using my SD handgun.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:01 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWray View Post
Now a home invasion or burglary, if BG enters your residence and you double tap BG..it is automatically assumed that BG had the intent of doing grave bodily harm to whomever was dwelling inside said residence. Not much else is said, but if your on the street and confronted by BG there better be a "dangerous or deadly weapon" in possession by BG, "OR" u almost need to be half beaten to death before you can use deadly force with firearm..and not be initially charged with something. Like i said This is oklahoma
Correct sir.

In a home invasion MOST places, a violent and tumultuous entry of a dwelling or an automobile (car jacking) has the "presumption of deadly violence", and you need not SEE a weapon to act in defense of your home.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:53 PM   #54
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If you ain't been knocked out or at least had stitches in your head from a fight, you ain't livin!! Kidding... I've had both and neither one are fun at all.

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Old 09-24-2011, 10:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by trip286
If you ain't been knocked out or at least had stitches in your head from a fight, you ain't livin!! Kidding... I've had both and neither one are fun at all.
Ive never been knocked out but ive had my bell rung a few times and needed a few stitches over the years.. Its never fun.... Well sometimes it fun,lol but it happens
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Old 09-25-2011, 02:35 AM   #56
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Ok. Good discussion. I am a big guy. 6'3 230 lbs. I can handle myself quite well. And have had to on a handful of occasions. I am not afraid of an ass whooping. It's good for you now and then. But, I think the unfortunate thing about our society is that a good old-fashioned bruhaha is exactly that: a thing of the past. You now hear stories on a regular basis of people being killed while trying to break up fights, or a person being beat to death by a group of teenagers. Partly due to our obsession with MMA, everyone wants to choke you out or ground and pound your face into hamburger.

I say always walk away and/or put distance between yourself and perceived threat. In the case that you can't get away: yell to bystanders to call 911, retreat, draw your weapon, warn the perp or perps by saying "I have a gun!" If that doesn't work, then you are clearly dealing with someone who is deranged. If hearing and seeing that someone has a gun doesn't make a BG run away, the BG may be on drugs or have a gun of his own. It takes 1.5 seconds for someone to close a distance of 21 feet. I would never attempt a fist fight with someone while carrying my weapon. Either I'm getting away or the BG runs away. I only believe in using force in justifiable situations. Pure and simple. You never know who you're dealing with out there. Maybe that BG that looks like a wimp is actually a jujitsu expert and he chokes you out and shoots you with your own gun. Maybe the douche bag with the arm bands and neck tribals, a bad tan, spikey gelled hair, and a wifebeater on really is an MMA fighter with a bad attitude and he beats your face in while everyone else with no guns around you watches because they're scared of him. I love everybody and will always side with peace. But I'm also not going to lose if a BG intends myself, my family, or innocent bystanders harm. I will not be a stunned bystander. I will save lives, not watch them mercilessly taken away.

"Blast if I have to" ~ EA-Ski

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Old 09-25-2011, 08:14 PM   #57
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Well, i cant really just walk away at this point cause he already drew first blood. I cant dump a couple of HP's in center mass because at this certain time my life's not in danger. I wouldve have tried to difuse this situation before punches started flying by just walking away. Since he already punched me, i gotta knuckle up and get dirty. To honest, now days where i live, guys skipping past the punches and pulling the heat out Thats why i carry; better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it:

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Old 09-25-2011, 08:33 PM   #58
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Well, i cant really just walk away at this point cause he already drew first blood. I cant dump a couple of HP's in center mass because at this certain time my life's not in danger. I wouldve have tried to difuse this situation before punches started flying by just walking away. Since he already punched me, i gotta knuckle up and get dirty. To honest, now days where i live, guys skipping past the punches and pulling the heat out Thats why i carry; better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it:
You know...NO ONE has mentioned just taking the punch and calling 911 or having the clerk call 911.

I know it's a hit to your pride, ego, and man card points...BUT...think of it this way: You take a punch. You're still on your feet. You're not even really phased OTHER than now you're pissed off. You're certainly not "hurt" or "injured", because let's face it MOST guys really hit like girls anyway...and a fight is really a wrestling, shoving, and cussing match.

When officers show up...he gets a free ride to county lockup, a charge, probably 10-15 hours of anger management (which is AWESOME because it just makes his day longer for having been a dumbass), and maybe a year of probation during which time, he probably won't be allowed to possess a firearm. He pays a hefty price for being an idiot. AND...offiers don't have to take YOU down for the same charge, or for a mutual combat charge.

In all my years as a cop, I probably only ran into two guys who really knew how to fight. BUT...they weren't trained in the ancient art of getting the crap beat out of them with a PR24 or an ASP, then eventually riding the lightning from my TASER so we didn't HAVE to tussle much anymore.

DO NOT take my above as advocating taking the punch...it was just an option no one had mentioned, and I pointed it out. I am still of the cop mindset that says "A hand on ME costs YOU a broken bone right now", though I really do try to live the peaceable life now, and don't get into silly tussles, so it's a non-issue for the most part. Even if I do, there are plenty of wrist, arm, and shoulder locks I can use so I don't HAVE to bust my knuckles on a knucklehead. Employing purely defensive tactics in a minor altercation looks GREAT in court...so it's worth every minute of training you get learning a few good locks, bars, and holds.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaLawman

You know...NO ONE has mentioned just taking the punch and calling 911 or having the clerk call 911.

I know it's a hit to your pride, ego, and man card points...BUT...think of it this way: You take a punch. You're still on your feet. You're not even really phased OTHER than now you're pissed off. You're certainly not "hurt" or "injured", because let's face it MOST guys really hit like girls anyway...and a fight is really a wrestling, shoving, and cussing match.

When officers show up...he gets a free ride to county lockup, a charge, probably 10-15 hours of anger management (which is AWESOME because it just makes his day longer for having been a dumbass), and maybe a year of probation during which time, he probably won't be allowed to possess a firearm. He pays a hefty price for being an idiot. AND...offiers don't have to take YOU down for the same charge, or for a mutual combat charge.

In all my years as a cop, I probably only ran into two guys who really knew how to fight. BUT...they weren't trained in the ancient art of getting the crap beat out of them with a PR24 or an ASP, then eventually riding the lightning from my TASER so we didn't HAVE to tussle much anymore.

DO NOT take my above as advocating taking the punch...it was just an option no one had mentioned, and I pointed it out. I am still of the cop mindset that says "A hand on ME costs YOU a broken bone right now", though I really do try to live the peaceable life now, and don't get into silly tussles, so it's a non-issue for the most part. Even if I do, there are plenty of wrist, arm, and shoulder locks I can use so I don't HAVE to bust my knuckles on a knucklehead. Employing purely defensive tactics in a minor altercation looks GREAT in court...so it's worth every minute of training you get learning a few good locks, bars, and holds.
You are especially right about the different things fhat you can do other than just a punch.you have more options with an arm bar or a shoulder lock. You can use it just as an escort using pain compliance if the guy is just being stupid or if you think the guy is a bigger threat then go ahead and cause ligament damage and break a bone,"or bones" disabling the particular body part. I feel that i can punch fairly hard but im alot more confident in my limb manipulation techniques....i think there is a guy right now that is still feeling one of my arm bars...
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:10 AM   #60
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Nice point arizona

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