Hypothetical situation for training and discussion: Please play along - Page 3
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection >

Hypothetical situation for training and discussion: Please play along


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-23-2011, 08:17 PM   #21
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
MrWray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 6,428
Liked 1040 Times on 621 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtSam
As has been pointed out, the fact that someone is equal in height, weight, and build, doesn't mean "jack"!

My son is a 5' 6" very lean, well conditioned young man. A lot of people throughout is Jr High and High School years thought it would be fun to pick on the little guy. The jocks were the worst. He still runs into occasionally as an adult. But, my son has an ace up his sleeve that a number of people didn't count on. He's a 6th degree black belt. And the has the ability to take care of himself, even when the odds appear to be stacked against him. A number of high school jocks found this out the hard way.

What I'm getting at here is simply that the other guy may be a martial arts expert and could do a hell of lot more than an ass whoopin', and quickly.

I'm 66 years old, bad back, bad feet, bad knees, and arthritis in my hands. I don't fight very well anymore. So, as far as I'm concerned, if the "jack ass" comes on to me with any indication that he's a martial artist, I'm going to equalize the situation with a drawn gun.

When I was a Federal Agent many years ago in the U.S. Air Force (AFOSI), I had more than one instructor from other law enforcement agencies, federal and local, state that if a subject became the least bit belligerent, and, showed any indication of using martial arts, shoot him.

It's a hard decision, but for many of us who are starting into our "golden (rust)" years, the option of mixing it up just isn't there anymore. That's one of the reasons a lot of elders carry. To equalize the playing field. As we all know, often the mere presents of the gun in a threatening manner, ends the threat. Shots don't have to be fired, only the immediate potential to do so.

Yes, retreat is my first order of defense. If I'm allowed to do so, I really don't give a crap what the punk, or anyone else thinks. I'm alive and well. Don't let me retreat and, well, I just might ruin someone's day.

Well, that's my take, my measly $0.02 on this issue.
Ur 100% right, im 5'8 and weigh 160lbs,So im by no means a big guy. i know first hand tht the size of a man doesnt mean anything. Ive put MANY people of all sizes on the pavement for trying to resist arrest. Big guys,small guys, fat guys,tall guys, it doesnt matter. Sometimes its the smaller guys tht give u the most problem. If i think im gonna have a problem with someone i dont size them up by how big they are.. I study their demeaner and the way tht they carry theirself.. I dont care how big ur...some people call it little man syndrome.. Little man syndrome is when a person hypes up their attitude to compensate for their size hoping to deter people from messing with them. I dont have little man syndrome, i like the size i am. Im just full of piss and vinegar
__________________
Semper paratus.....virtute et armis
MrWray is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:21 PM   #22
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
orangello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,154
Liked 5738 Times on 3362 Posts
Likes Given: 4877

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
Don't know about that, I've seen more than one fight start as a pee meets foot incident.
True, IME drunken accidental foot watering incidents, but have you ever seen a fight start after one guy intentionally whips it out & waters the opponents feet? I have never seen that happen, well not yet anyway.

Now, if duder winks, you may have different issues upcoming.
__________________
Dead Bears, the only good kind.
orangello is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:24 PM   #23
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9213 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangello View Post
True, IME drunken accidental foot watering incidents, but have you ever seen a fight start after one guy intentionally whips it out & waters the opponents feet? I have never seen that happen, well not yet anyway.

Now, if duder winks, you may have different issues upcoming.
No but I have seen a man catch a beat down for pulling out and swinging it around screaming "I got a helicopter!!"
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:33 PM   #24
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
ArizonaLawman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Florence,AZ
Posts: 463
Liked 3 Times on 1 Posts

Default

So...for what it's worth...here's my answer.

If I am face to face with someone about my size, age, height as the scenario suggests:

Number one, I am going to put my hands up to about the level of my head with open palms TOWARD the other feller. This is a "surrender" position (what he don't know is it is also a FANTASTIC guard and sneaky striking position), and I am simply going to say "You win man...I don't want trouble."

I am going to say it repeatedly, so not only does HE hear it, but any and all potential witnesses hear it. "I do NOT want trouble."

Bear in mind...I am absolutely ready to go hands-on and do every nasty thing I ever learned in training, on the street as a cop, in defensive tactics training...BUT...I am also MORE willing to let him have his ego win NOT to have to go there. I am post-40 and not as tough as I used to think I was. Like Toby Keith's song says...I Ain't As Good As I Once Was...lol.

So...that is the key...I will try like hell to defuse the situation. I will try to be the peaceful monk dude from all those peaceful warrior monk movies. I may even offer to buy the feller a beer, or a soda, or a cigar...whatever.

If you don't HAVE to fight, you don't HAVE to explain it to officers later...or a judge...or more importantly, your wife. If you DO have to explain it...man you sure look like Mr. Nice Guy when the little old lady buying her scratcher tickets confirms everything you just said OR the security cameras inside the store show proof of your actions and corroborate YOUR relating of the events in question.

If he insists on scrapping...then I am going to bring the grizzly bear to the fight. I have NO problem kickin' a rascal right in the gonads just before I take out his knee and smash a hammer fist into his collar bone. Better yet...coming out with my steel kubotan and ripping it down his chest then poking him in the kidneys until he pisses blood for a week or so. BUT...that is after I have used up ALL my nice guy cards and tried like Mother Theresa to bless the boy and send him on his way. I am willing to talk a long while before I have to roll around on the ground with someone. After that...the choice is pretty much his.

NOW...the kicker. In the scenario above...we don't know WHO the real aggressor was. We walk in on a pair of knuckleheads doing what knuckleheads do. So as an observer...would YOU take action on behalf of either party?

Man...I must have had too much coffee this afternoon...LOL.
__________________
"If you take your hands off the back of my cruiser one more time...I will make your birth certificate a worthless document!"
ArizonaLawman is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:36 PM   #25
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
orangello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19,154
Liked 5738 Times on 3362 Posts
Likes Given: 4877

Default

Walking in on that confrontation, no i would not take up for either one of those goofballs. I would hope that they learned from the situation & the aftermath, if the cops show up or they get banned from the 7-11.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
No but I have seen a man catch a beat down for pulling out and swinging it around screaming "I got a helicopter!!"
Well yeah, but everybody knows the "helicopter" is over the top. It's funny, a buddy was talking about "helicoptering" off his porch, while drunk, just the other night.
__________________
Dead Bears, the only good kind.

Last edited by orangello; 09-23-2011 at 08:38 PM.
orangello is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:38 PM   #26
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
MrWray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 6,428
Liked 1040 Times on 621 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaLawman
So...for what it's worth...here's my answer.

If I am face to face with someone about my size, age, height as the scenario suggests:

Number one, I am going to put my hands up to about the level of my head with open palms TOWARD the other feller. This is a "surrender" position (what he don't know is it is also a FANTASTIC guard and sneaky striking position), and I am simply going to say "You win man...I don't want trouble."

I am going to say it repeatedly, so not only does HE hear it, but any and all potential witnesses hear it. "I do NOT want trouble."

Bear in mind...I am absolutely ready to go hands-on and do every nasty thing I ever learned in training, on the street as a cop, in defensive tactics training...BUT...I am also MORE willing to let him have his ego win NOT to have to go there. I am post-40 and not as tough as I used to think I was. Like Toby Keith's song says...I Ain't As Good As I Once Was...lol.

So...that is the key...I will try like hell to defuse the situation. I will try to be the peaceful monk dude from all those peaceful warrior monk movies. I may even offer to buy the feller a beer, or a soda, or a cigar...whatever.

If you don't HAVE to fight, you don't HAVE to explain it to officers later...or a judge...or more importantly, your wife. If you DO have to explain it...man you sure look like Mr. Nice Guy when the little old lady buying her scratcher tickets confirms everything you just said OR the security cameras inside the store show proof of your actions and corroborate YOUR relating of the events in question.

If he insists on scrapping...then I am going to bring the grizzly bear to the fight. I have NO problem kickin' a rascal right in the gonads just before I take out his knee and smash a hammer fist into his collar bone. Better yet...coming out with my steel kubotan and ripping it down his chest then poking him in the kidneys until he pisses blood for a week or so. BUT...that is after I have used up ALL my nice guy cards and tried like Mother Theresa to bless the boy and send him on his way. I am willing to talk a long while before I have to roll around on the ground with someone. After that...the choice is pretty much his.

NOW...the kicker. In the scenario above...we don't know WHO the real aggressor was. We walk in on a pair of knuckleheads doing what knuckleheads do. So as an observer...would YOU take action on behalf of either party?

Man...I must have had too much coffee this afternoon...LOL.
Tht is an awesome scenario, and no i would not favour either one of the fellas.. I would say tht they would share the same liability of watever happened next
__________________
Semper paratus.....virtute et armis
MrWray is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:48 PM   #27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
ArizonaLawman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Florence,AZ
Posts: 463
Liked 3 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangello View Post
True, IME drunken accidental foot watering incidents, but have you ever seen a fight start after one guy intentionally whips it out & waters the opponents feet? I have never seen that happen, well not yet anyway.

Now, if duder winks, you may have different issues upcoming.
Negative...but I HAVE seen a so-called big bad tough biker guy get his ENTIRE ass handed to him by a little guy. And I do mean HANDED to him.

The biker was with one of the major outlaw m/c's. He is/was about 6'5" 340-350lbs. According to witnesses, he started berating the smaller guy 5'9" 160 for the japanese bike he was riding. The biker actually slapped the little guy AFTER the little guy tried to simply get away from him. After the second slap, the little guy went up one side and down the other on the biker clown. I mean kicks, punches, coming from everywhere at once it seems. He totally wrecked the biker clown.

Anyway...at the end, the biker is laying on the pavement in the parking lot of the store bleeding from everywhere, and the little dude whips it out and urinates all over the biker AND his bike.

The little guy gets on his bike and takes off.

I was one of the first two officers on scene. It's funny how NO ONE at the store got a plate number, or a make/model of the japanese bike, and there were conflicting physical descriptions of the little guy.

I saw the whole incident on the store's security camera. I had an idea who the little guy was...and he was golden in the incident EXCEPT for whipping it out...

Honestly, I would have had a very difficult time dropping paper on the guy and, had I caught him, I would have long formed the report with no charges filed, and let a detective with which I had a good relationship with sit on the paperwork for 6 months+ 1 day. Other officers here know what that means. I am sure non LE have picked up on it too.

Sadly....I couldn't charge the biker with assault because there was no victim, even though there was a video of the incident. It was a simple assault, not with aggravating circumstances.
__________________
"If you take your hands off the back of my cruiser one more time...I will make your birth certificate a worthless document!"

Last edited by ArizonaLawman; 09-23-2011 at 08:53 PM.
ArizonaLawman is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:51 PM   #28
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
ArizonaLawman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Florence,AZ
Posts: 463
Liked 3 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWray View Post
Tht is an awesome scenario, and no i would not favour either one of the fellas.. I would say tht they would share the same liability of watever happened next
BINGO! Mutual combat....chips falling where they may. Neither of them are in a position to claim self defense because they were BOTH willing participants in the fight.
__________________
"If you take your hands off the back of my cruiser one more time...I will make your birth certificate a worthless document!"
ArizonaLawman is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:56 PM   #29
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9213 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

If I walked in on that particular situation, I would turn and leave, even if it meant driving off without paying for gas (which is hard to do in these pre pay days anyway) then I would call the cops and let them handle it/get shot at. I would call the cops because in a worse case scenario I wouldn't want an innocent bystander to get hurt, nor a cop either but at least this is the kind of thing that a cop signed up for and SHOULD be trained for-keeping the peace. While I wouldn't want to see an innocent get hurt, and I am trained (Marine Infantry, and then MP) it is not currently my job or responsibility, and has the potential to ruin my life through legal actions. It should be feasible to shout a verbal warning to the clerk and other customers though.

Maybe there is a moral responsibility in a way, but I also have to think of my family.

Last edited by trip286; 09-23-2011 at 08:59 PM.
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:59 PM   #30
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
MrWray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 6,428
Liked 1040 Times on 621 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaLawman

Negative...but I HAVE seen a so-called big bad tough biker guy get his ENTIRE ass handed to him by a little guy. And I do mean HANDED to him.

The biker was with one of the major outlaw m/c's. He is/was about 6'5" 340-350lbs. According to witnesses, he started berating the smaller guy 5'9" 160 for the japanese bike he was riding. The biker actually slapped the little guy AFTER the little guy tried to simply get away from him. After the second slap, the little guy went up one side and down the other on the biker clown. I mean kicks, punches, coming from everywhere at once it seems. He totally wrecked the biker clown.

Anyway...at the end, the biker is laying on the pavement in the parking lot of the store bleeding from everywhere, and the little dude whips it out and urinates all over the biker AND his bike.

The little guy gets on his bike and takes off.

I was one of the first two officers on scene. It's funny how NO ONE at the store got a plate number, or a make/model of the japanese bike, and there were conflicting physical descriptions of the little guy.

I saw the whole incident on the store's security camera. I had an idea who the little guy was...and he was golden in the incident EXCEPT for whipping it out...

Honestly, I would have had a very difficult time dropping paper on the guy and, had I caught him, I would have long formed the report with no charges filed, and let a detective with which I had a good relationship with sit on the paperwork for 6 months+ 1 day. Other officers here know what that means. I am sure non LE have picked up on it too.

Sadly....I couldn't charge the biker with assault because there was no victim, even though there was a video of the incident. It was a simple assault, not with aggravating circumstances.
Statute of limitations, u would have within 6 months to charge the crotch rocket kid for A&B and probly public indecency
__________________
Semper paratus.....virtute et armis
MrWray is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Hypothetical Question Ė 3 Day trek Gloves General Rifle Discussion 28 09-12-2011 01:14 PM
Hypothetical Rifle Load? Joshua M. Smith Ammunition & Reloading 0 08-28-2010 01:12 PM
Hypothetical Home Invasion/Burglary Mapnapkin Training & Safety 53 10-26-2009 03:38 PM
Hypothetical question. Jo da Plumbr Politics, Religion and Controversy 3 10-07-2009 12:34 AM
Hypothetical question. skullcrusher The Club House 25 01-25-2009 11:59 PM



Newest Threads