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Old 04-15-2013, 08:22 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
i see why you favor an AR, but i still believe the 12 ga with buckshot is much more effective. IMO, under stressful situation, the AR or even a pistol require more precision in aiming than a shotgun. even if an d that's a huge if, the BG were wearing a vest (soft armor) then if the first shot doesn't stop or deter him, them multiple follow-up shots will be taken.

it's kind of hard for a BG to be aggresive if his head is missing!
Axxe,

I know you'll just love this because it detracts from my point about using AR's for the night stand, but to be completely honest in this discussion I'm going to throw this out there.

Technically speaking, at distances under 25 yards, a 12 gauge cylinder bore pump shotgun with 00 buckshot or slugs CAN put more kinetic energy on target than 556 in a given time frame.

I'm not sure what other people are capable of, but I can generally fire 3-4 rounds per second with a Colt lightweight carbine (standard military trigger) and 2-3 with an 870 Police with a number of enhancements (RDS, slide grip enhancement, buttstock with a pistol grip and length of pull suitable for me).

I've never been attacked by B-27's or Q silhouettes, so I wouldn't expect that to work out quite the same way when movement and poor shooting positions are involved.

Neither the carbine nor the shotgun is more difficult to aim than the other. They're both equipped with RDS. I've never lined up 3 points in different planes faster than 2 and never met anyone else who could.

All the 12 gauge shotguns I've ever shot have a lot more recoil than 556 AR's. Making fast follow-up shots with pump shotguns requires an understanding of how to use recoil to reload and bring the shotgun back on target. No such understanding is necessary with the AR. The AR barely leaves point of aim in recoil.

The same does not hold true with multiple targets, in my experience. My carbine is significantly lighter than my shotgun. Transitioning between targets is faster with the carbine. The weight of my shotgun helps with recoil control, but it detracts from handling.

If you load the shotgun with slugs, it can punch through soft body armor and a foster slug will penetrate more than 556 at in-home ranges. Apart from penetration, if you load the shotgun with common foster slugs then it's a low-capacity, high-recoil, high-penetration rifle.

Each pellet of 00 buckshot (standard 12 gauge Remington or Winchester 2 3/4 shells) is slightly less powerful than a .38 Special (standard Remington or Winchester target/practice loads). Each 556 bullet is about as powerful as a hot loaded 44 Magnum (Buffalo Bore heavy 44 Magnum loadings) at point blank range.

At the distances we're talking about, your margin for error with the shotgun is notionally higher than it is with the carbine. It's a matter of a couple of inches. I'd not want to be hit with either one, but I'm not sure either is superior to the other at 1-7 yards.

My 870 holds 8 rounds and while powerful, is heavy and still has heavy recoil. My Colt carbine holds 30 rounds is lightweight and has light recoil. The purchase price between the carbine and shotgun was pretty much a wash if the cost of what I added to the shotgun to give it the features and handling characteristics I wanted was included in the price. Ammunition made the initial purchase price of either irrelevant, anyway.

Between a shotgun and a handgun, I want a shotgun. Why deal with the weight, recoil, expense (of ammunition), and low capacity of the shotgun if you can have a carbine? Whatever slight advantage the shotgun has in the power department it gives up to the carbine in every other department.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:13 PM   #142
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Axxe,

I know you'll just love this because it detracts from my point about using AR's for the night stand, but to be completely honest in this discussion I'm going to throw this out there.

Technically speaking, at distances under 25 yards, a 12 gauge cylinder bore pump shotgun with 00 buckshot or slugs CAN put more kinetic energy on target than 556 in a given time frame.

I'm not sure what other people are capable of, but I can generally fire 3-4 rounds per second with a Colt lightweight carbine (standard military trigger) and 2-3 with an 870 Police with a number of enhancements (RDS, slide grip enhancement, buttstock with a pistol grip and length of pull suitable for me).

I've never been attacked by B-27's or Q silhouettes, so I wouldn't expect that to work out quite the same way when movement and poor shooting positions are involved.

Neither the carbine nor the shotgun is more difficult to aim than the other. They're both equipped with RDS. I've never lined up 3 points in different planes faster than 2 and never met anyone else who could.

All the 12 gauge shotguns I've ever shot have a lot more recoil than 556 AR's. Making fast follow-up shots with pump shotguns requires an understanding of how to use recoil to reload and bring the shotgun back on target. No such understanding is necessary with the AR. The AR barely leaves point of aim in recoil.

The same does not hold true with multiple targets, in my experience. My carbine is significantly lighter than my shotgun. Transitioning between targets is faster with the carbine. The weight of my shotgun helps with recoil control, but it detracts from handling.

If you load the shotgun with slugs, it can punch through soft body armor and a foster slug will penetrate more than 556 at in-home ranges. Apart from penetration, if you load the shotgun with common foster slugs then it's a low-capacity, high-recoil, high-penetration rifle.

Each pellet of 00 buckshot (standard 12 gauge Remington or Winchester 2 3/4 shells) is slightly less powerful than a .38 Special (standard Remington or Winchester target/practice loads). Each 556 bullet is about as powerful as a hot loaded 44 Magnum (Buffalo Bore heavy 44 Magnum loadings) at point blank range.

At the distances we're talking about, your margin for error with the shotgun is notionally higher than it is with the carbine. It's a matter of a couple of inches. I'd not want to be hit with either one, but I'm not sure either is superior to the other at 1-7 yards.

My 870 holds 8 rounds and while powerful, is heavy and still has heavy recoil. My Colt carbine holds 30 rounds is lightweight and has light recoil. The purchase price between the carbine and shotgun was pretty much a wash if the cost of what I added to the shotgun to give it the features and handling characteristics I wanted was included in the price. Ammunition made the initial purchase price of either irrelevant, anyway.

Between a shotgun and a handgun, I want a shotgun. Why deal with the weight, recoil, expense (of ammunition), and low capacity of the shotgun if you can have a carbine? Whatever slight advantage the shotgun has in the power department it gives up to the carbine in every other department.
I used to think just like you, but this video made me think. I had always thought of a single assailant encounter as the most likely, but if it isn't, I believe the shotgun to be a much faster and effective tool in the home for the reasons that this video espouses.

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Old 04-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #143
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Actually these findings are coming from law enforcement. Soldiers are taught to shoot center mass. This will probably change very soon, especially with body armor being more available. I found this article from a law enforcement and military instructor. It is very interesting and supports what I have been told by LEOs.
http://shootrite.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/anatomy-and-center-mass/
I would guess he is not a student of anatomy and physiology, but his opinion does have a little bit of merit. His comment about deliberately aiming for the pubis is acceptable if the head or chest shots are totally out of the question, but that would be my last choice. I doubt I could hit it with a handgun under those conditions.

Do you think they could be talking long guns? They are inherently more accurate, have a longer sight radius, and are often fired from a more stable platform.

Anyway, we're way off topic. My apologies to the OP.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #144
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Which do think is better to have next to you at night for home protection. A low capacity .45 auto (Springfield XDS 5+1) or a high capacity .9mm (Taurus 24/7 Pro 17+1)? Your thoughts are appreciated.
Go with the 9mm loaded with good defense ammo. Better to have more shots in a emergency situation.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:40 PM   #145
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Which gun is better for the night stand?
The short answer is the one you are the most accurate with. Home security is really a multi layer approach, most people do not prepare their home for self defense.

First layer would be outside lighting, do you have flood lights on the outside with motion sensors? If not get some and place them at points of entry.

Second layer would be an alarm system, do you have your residence wired with an alarm, no then get a large dog or one that will keep barking when anyone come close to the house.

Third layer would be hardened entances, do you have steel doors at the front and back doorways with good hardware on them?

Fourth layer would be inside lighting, do you have motion sensing switches that turn on an inside light when someone enters the house?

Fifth layer would be window locks that only allow the window to be opened half way up without releasing the lock.

Sixth layer would be a safe to lock up any unused or carried firearm, if not get one.

Seventh layer would be a cell phone on that night stand the can not be disabled by cutting the phone line. Can't afford a cell phone, then get a free one, you can still call 911 with it even if the phone is not active.

And finally the choice of firearm, most break in's happen during the day and not at night (it does happen though). And carring a rifle or shotgun around with you in the house is not pratical, so get yourself a good belt and holster so you can carry a sidearm around with you at all times.

Me personally I like to carry a compact 45 ACP and there are many good ones on the market nowadays.

With any luck, by following the first seven layers you will not have to use the last one.
Jim
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:56 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by nixfix View Post
I used to think just like you, but this video made me think. I had always thought of a single assailant encounter as the most likely, but if it isn't, I believe the shotgun to be a much faster and effective tool in the home for the reasons that this video espouses.
Nixfix,

Did you watch the whole video?

In the video the commentator recommended using a carbine over a shotgun after he made the assertion that the shotgun was more lethal. Is there anything else to consider apart from potential lethality IF you hit the target?... Like hitting the target at all. The shooter with the carbine never missed.

The lethality of a shotgun MAY be higher if you hit the target and the target isn't wearing a vest.

Was there some magic about hitting the target once with a shotgun vs five times with a carbine? If the shooter with the carbine had shot each target twice and done so with some speed, would it have detracted from his point?

I don't know what the skill level of the shooters was, but from personal experience you can fire a carbine a lot faster than the shooter in the video did and still hit the target, especially with red dots.

The target and the shooter were both stationary. How realistic is a target practice scenario (for you or the home invader)? Do lots of criminals stand perfectly still and erect while breaking into your home so you can shoot them more easily?

Do lots of people have homes where they can make a 20 yard shot inside?

Perhaps half that distance with shooter and target movement, no light, a confined space like a bedroom opening into an even more confined hallway, and imperfect shooting positions around doors and other obstacles is a more realistic test.

It never ceases to amaze me how people watch/listen to what they want to see/hear while ignoring the parts they disagree with.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:15 AM   #147
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+1 for a shotgun, but if a pistol is your choice any caliber that you shoot well with a Tac light and/or a laser would be my preference.
A lot has to do with your living environment. if you live in an apartment you may want to choose something less lethal so that you do not endanger your neighbors with rounds going through walls. However, if you live on a farm where your neighbors are several miles away, that is a different story.

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Old 04-17-2013, 07:04 PM   #148
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I agree that a shotgun is better than a handgun, but only in terms of stopping power. A shotgun has real disadvantages for home defense for the average untrained citizen:

  • A shotgun needs something to be manipulated before it will shoot - either a safety must be disengaged or the pump slide must be racked. This takes time.
  • A shotgun requires two hands.
  • It is more difficult to grab & deploy in a struggle.
  • It is more difficult to maneuver around blind corners without risking the bad guy grabbing the gun.
  • Most defensive shotguns are pumps, which take time to rack the slide AND require training & practice before doing so becomes automatic and efficient.
  • Most shotguns have very limited ammo capacity. While it's true that a center of mass hit with a shotgun is much more likely to result in stopping that particular bad guy, it is also true that it is far easier to miss the target with a shotgun than most folks believe.

I was training an older lady how to handle a small handgun for self defense when a guy showed up with a shot gun. The gal said something about how it was impossible to miss with the shotgun, but when she saw the small 1" holes in the target, it became clear to her that missing was entirely possible.

Our solution to the dilemma is a Sig P226 in 40S&W at the head of the bed, and a 12 gauge pump leaning against the side of the head board. She's got a similar selection on her side; S&W 686 (357 Mag) and a 20 gauge pump. BTW, our home defense guns are equipped with lasers & lights.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:34 PM   #149
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I'll stick to my Jericho 941, 40 S&W with tactical light/ laser combo in case the boogie man comes a calling late one evening. If the shtf, the 12 ga is at hand for back up.

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Old 04-18-2013, 01:10 PM   #150
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I have seen a lot of posts suggesting lasers or lights attached to the various handgun choices. While I certainly understand why people are saying this, and to a point agree with them, there is another choice.

I use nightlights. A lot of nightlights, and none of them are located in my bedroom. I also use night sights on my bedside gun. My thinking is that my night vision will never be better than it is when I first wake up. I use night lights to provide back lighting for the intruder giving me a nice outline to aim for. Why did I pick this method over lights or lasers? Lights and lasers illuminate at both ends. I know my house, and the bad guys don't. I know my planned defensive position, and the bad guys don't. Why should I tell them where I am by adding a locator light?

I certainly won't argue the point about which works best. In my opinion the house design, whether or not pets are present, and your furniture layout play a big part in deciding which way to go. I'm just throwing out a possibility that fits my needs, and may fit yours.

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