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Which gun is better for the night stand?


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Old 04-12-2013, 04:23 PM   #121
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Default You've got me a bit confused....

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The Navy teaches, or taught, shooting people in the pelvis, knees, and shins with buckshot. The knee/shin shots were accomplished by skipping pellets off the deck. Perfect shooting positions and magic bullets that only hit and penetrate what the shooter intended just don't exist in the real world. Change angles, change targets, changes the areas you shoot through, or accept the risk of over-penetration. If someone knows of a magic bullet that prevents over-penetration through dry wall but penetrates acceptably through meat, I'd love to hear about it.

If you're more concerned with penetrating the target than connecting with it, I think you're worried about the wrong things. Don't shoot .30 caliber rifles in the house, don't shoot pistols in the house, and don't shoot shotguns in the house if you're really that concerned about penetration. Standard 5.56MM 55 grain FMJ (M193/XM193) was and is better if over-penetration is a concern. Anybody who feels otherwise should go test their theories for themselves.

Doesn't this sorta relate back to a basic firearm safety rule?

If all you have is a shotgun or pistol and the intruder has soft body armor (a vest), how else do you intend to bring him down? The torso and legs are much bigger targets than the head is. Yet another reason to use 556 for home defense.
I never said I was worried about over-penetration over connecting with my target. I agree the 5.56 is a good option if you are worried about over-penetration as the round bounces around in the body before exiting but for me, and I'm sure for most people, having an AR sitting next to your bed really isn't feasible and I'd have to question the knowledge of "basic firearm safety" for anyone who did. I said my first firearm is my .38 Super loaded with 9+1 130 gr. +P rounds w/2 extra mags. I'm not worried about over-penetration because (a) I can easily CONSISTENTLY place a headshot into anyone within 15 feet (the longest distance for a shot in my home) and (b) if I'm shooting in my house, neighbors and other residents aren't a concern. My second weapon, a semi-auto .12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck is a pretty safe bet to incapacitate someone within 10-15' as I fire (1) Center mass; (2) Body cradle; (3) Legs; (4) Head, and (5) etc., etc., etc. again. I still have 3 rounds left, besides. But my first line of defense is my alarm system, my killer Pomeranians. Not for attack but for their outstanding hearing, smell and barking abilities. In my 20 years in the Marines I only fired a shotgun twice for FAM firing. But I shoot skeet often and am not too shabby, IMHO. Maybe you got my post confused with another one (like someone who's inexperienced enough to need weapons advice from the Navy).
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:46 PM   #122
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I've heard of this technique, and I've definitely given it considered time to wander around in my head, largely as a Plan B should I ever find myself confronted with a bad guy that doesn't go down with after a string of CoM hits.

Obviously, this technique suggests that enough power is required to break the pelvis. I'm not sure that a lightweight 9mm bullet can do that reliably.

I've also heard that the pelvic shot is not that simple. If you hit the BG in the pelvis and break it, yes he's going down right now. However, if you miss the bone, then there's no guarantees.

As for the 38 Super +P . . .

Last year I decided that a 1911 in 38 Super would be the Cat's Meow, both in IDPA and for self defense. My "PLAN" was to convert my 9mm Nighthawk Dominator to 38 Super for IDPA, then if that went well, I'd do the same with my 9mm Dan Wesson Guardian CCW gun.

So, I bought a Shuemann AE barrel and had the local 1911 'smith fit it to the Nighthawk. I had a helluva time with the semi-rimmed cases causing the top round jamming on the bottom of the feed ramp. Going to competition-style cases was the obvious solution, but that also defeated any cost effectiveness of the project.

The real surprise, however, came when I chronographed the defensive ammo. I was impressed with the data on Cor-Bon's web site; 125 gr DPX ran at 1450 FPS - nearly 600 ft lbs ME. Except, when I received the ammo I ordered, the box said 1350 FPS and the MW was down to 506. When, I ran it across the chronograph, it was even slower. Just 1291 FPS. So, I put the 9mm barrel back in and ran my usual 127 gr Winchester Ranger-T +P+ . . . 1289 FPS. Just 2 FPS slower, but 2 grains heavier made the 9mm Ranger-T a more potent round than the 38 Super.

So, while the 38 Super can be loaded hotter safer, my own experience with factory defensive ammo is that I can get the same or better results with Winchester Ranger-T. If only Ranger-T was easier to find.

As for the bedside gun and it's collateral duty as a self-defense gun . . . I have similar yet different criteria for the ideal bedside gun vs. the ideal CCW.

Bedside:
  • Powerful. As powerful as I can shoot accurately and rapidly in a full-size gun, preferably an all-stainless gun. That means either 40 or 45.
  • Intuitive. It must be absolutely intuitive point and shoot. Even though I shoot at least 10K rounds annually with my 1911's, Murphy says I may fumble the thumb safety if I have to grab & shoot.
  • Natural point of aim. It needs to be a gun that shoots where I point it naturally. I may not have time to focus on the front sight. Besides, it's entirely possible I might not even be able to see the front sight. In fact, it's entirely possible I won't have my glasses on, so while I'll be able to see the mid-range stuff like the bad guy OK, I need my glasses to focus on something close like the sights.
  • Laser. I've been in one stand-off with a bad guy and my focus was 100% on him. I didn't want to shoot him if he behaved, but if he didn't behave he was getting a load of 00 buck. My point is that I'd like to be able to "aim" while simultaneously having both eyes open and on the target and surroundings.
  • Light. I have 2 hand lights on the bedstand, but I want a tactical light on the gun too. preferably a strobe light.
  • Ammo. More is better and my nightstand never complains about how heavy ammo is, so I want a high capacity mag.

Compare that to my CCW priorities:
  • Powerful. As powerful as I can shoot accurately and rapidly in a compact lightweight gun; either polymer or alloy frame. That means either 9mm or 45.
  • Intuitive. It must be intuitive relative to the type of gun I'm currently shooting most in competition. In other words, if I'm shooting 1911's in competition, then I carry a 1911. If I'm shooting M&Ps, then I carry an M&P. If I'm shooting revolvers, then I carry a Kahr K9 because it has a very revolver-like trigger. Again, Murphy says I may fumble the gun if it's different platform than the gun I'm shooting hundreds or thousands of rounds/week.
  • Light and thin for comfort. I know guys that swear their all steel full-size service pistol is comfortable to carry all day. Comfort is relative and carrying a bigger, thicker, heavier gun is less comfortable than carrying a smaller, thinner, lighter gun. Duh. I like to be comfortable.
  • Laser. I like lasers, however I don't like the additional thickness that the CT grip-style lasers add to 1911's, M&P's, etc.
  • Ammo. Single stack. If I'm going to an urban area where there's a chance of having multiple targets, then I'll pack a bigger gun and carry an extra mag or two.
It's kind of funny but I daily carry and fire a Taurus PT-1911 (Cost: $515) and I've probably put about 2000 - 2500 rounds through it and have never had a FTF (feed or fire). I have used all kinds of ammo, first, more expensive because I was worried about FTFs but had none. Then, anything that was on sale for $18 - $20 per 50. Finally, I started reloading using the brass from the ammo I bought. Still never had a FTF and my handloads are even more accurate. For pre-loaded, I really like Mag-Tech. Great price online and can get it with free shipping a lot of times. Maybe the problem is your weapon wasn't originally made for the .38 Super. As for weight, my 1911 never bothers me. I actually forget I've got it on. I am 6'2" and 210 so maybe body size has something to do with it. I guess I just prefer steel over plastic, though, but to each his own.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:17 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReconSpider

It's kind of funny but I daily carry and fire a Taurus PT-1911 (Cost: $515) and I've probably put about 2000 - 2500 rounds through it and have never had a FTF (feed or fire). I have used all kinds of ammo, first, more expensive because I was worried about FTFs but had none. Then, anything that was on sale for $18 - $20 per 50. Finally, I started reloading using the brass from the ammo I bought. Still never had a FTF and my handloads are even more accurate. For pre-loaded, I really like Mag-Tech. Great price online and can get it with free shipping a lot of times. Maybe the problem is your weapon wasn't originally made for the .38 Super. As for weight, my 1911 never bothers me. I actually forget I've got it on. I am 6'2" and 210 so maybe body size has something to do with it. I guess I just prefer steel over plastic, though, but to each his own.
I've been considering a PT1911 as my next purchase. How happy are you with yours?
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:04 AM   #124
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I never said I was worried about over-penetration over connecting with my target. I agree the 5.56 is a good option if you are worried about over-penetration as the round bounces around in the body before exiting but for me, and I'm sure for most people, having an AR sitting next to your bed really isn't feasible and I'd have to question the knowledge of "basic firearm safety" for anyone who did. I said my first firearm is my .38 Super loaded with 9+1 130 gr. +P rounds w/2 extra mags. I'm not worried about over-penetration because (a) I can easily CONSISTENTLY place a headshot into anyone within 15 feet (the longest distance for a shot in my home) and (b) if I'm shooting in my house, neighbors and other residents aren't a concern. My second weapon, a semi-auto .12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck is a pretty safe bet to incapacitate someone within 10-15' as I fire (1) Center mass; (2) Body cradle; (3) Legs; (4) Head, and (5) etc., etc., etc. again. I still have 3 rounds left, besides. But my first line of defense is my alarm system, my killer Pomeranians. Not for attack but for their outstanding hearing, smell and barking abilities. In my 20 years in the Marines I only fired a shotgun twice for FAM firing. But I shoot skeet often and am not too shabby, IMHO. Maybe you got my post confused with another one (like someone who's inexperienced enough to need weapons advice from the Navy).
I wasn't questioning anyone's knowledge of firearms, just pointing out that people using pistols and shotguns who think the rounds from those weapons penetrate less than 556 are kidding themselves.

So let me get this straight, you think having a loaded AR-15 next to the bed is violating "firearm safety" rules but having a 12 gauge semi-auto is A-OK? If that's not what you think but you don't have your shotgun next to the bed with you, how exactly do you ensure that you can use it when you need to?

You shot, presumably, rifles and carbines for 20 years in the Marine Corps. You stated that you fired a shotgun on two FAM fires (dumping lead into the ocean for those who aren't familiar with the term). Why use the shotgun as a secondary instead of an AR? May we have the benefit of your reasoning behind this?

You also stated that you use a .38 Super as your primary. If you're so good that you can shoot people in the head anywhere in your home, what do you need .38 Super +P for? Trying to make the grey matter splatter fatter? An exclamation point after the DRT, perhaps? How many more people could you shoot in the head with a 9MM pistol with nearly double the capacity of your .38 Super and less recoil? Did you shoot many people in the head with 9MM that didn't die? If they didn't die immediately, was getting shot in the head not a sufficient distraction to permit you to shoot them again?

This is just my personal experience, and I'm most definitely NOT a Marine recon sniper tactical operator, but I've never picked up a 9MM or .45 ACP pistol manufactured by Glock, SIG, HK, S&W, Colt, or Ruger in the last 10 years or so that wouldn't hit a playing card at 15 yards with practice/training ammunition from Winchester, Remington, or Federal. Most of those aforementioned manufacturers' weapons grouped significantly better than that. All of the pistols shot had more than enough accuracy to hit someone in the head at 15 feet.

If you have 30 rounds of 556 in your PMAG, do you need to worry about how many rounds you have left or shooting at secondary targets? Is there a point to limiting your long gun to the number of rounds a modern revolver has? If you don't use all 30, who cares?

Although I wouldn't describe my house as sparkly clean, I'm pretty sure it's not dirty enough or wet enough to make AR reliability an issue. I've never had a AR jam within 1 mag at a range and the environment in my house doesn't much resemble the mountains of Afghanistan or the sands of Iraq or even my local range.
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:41 AM   #125
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Here you go how about this


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Old 04-13-2013, 07:37 PM   #126
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what gun is better for the nightstand? simple answer. the one that you are comfortable with and the one that works for you.

some will feel a shotgun is best, some a pistol and some feel a rifle is the best choice. use what works for you and what suits your needs and application, not mine or others. but yours.

for me, a shotgun is primary with a pistol being secondary, but given some situations, those roles are reversed. it depends on the situation as to what i might use.

for those who have limited budgets or availability of firearms, it's critical that you practice and become well versed in what you have available and learn it's limitations and what it can or can't do. not everyone has multiple firearms to choose from and has to rely on what they do have. even a 22 rimfire pistol is better than nothing and if a person is quite a proficient shooter with it, it can be a good SD firearm.
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Old 04-13-2013, 11:51 PM   #127
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Well over 100 answers to the most general & really unanswerable question in the book- Gotta love it!!!
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:15 AM   #128
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This forum is great. I really enjoy the different ideas and opinions. Thanks!
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:14 AM   #129
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Pelvic hit? Really? Unless you are on a battlefield against a humane enemy willing to treat their wounded I do not advise this for self defense. It does nothing that will disable the adversaries ability to shoot. If running is in your game plan a skeletal hit in the pelvic region should slow the bad guy down, and it will hinder his ability to escape, but physiologically it does nothing to hinder the use of his arms. Even a clean cut of the spinal cord in this area will probably not help. It will do nothing to stop him from shooting if he is determined to do so.

How do I know this? Experience. I have seen many people over the years shot in the pelvic girdle. One of them eventually died, and not a single one of them was unable to shoot upon our arrival if that is what they wanted to do. Regarding the one that died, for the first 20 minutes he was more than capable of using his arms, and had the awareness and motor skills needed to fire a handgun. This is in spite of the fact that his common Iliac artery was perforated, and both right internal and right external Iliac arteries were shredded by 12 gauge #6 shot. His COD was blood building up in his abdominal cavity until it had enough pressure to lock the diaphragm in place. Official COD? Respiratory arrest secondary to exsanguination caused by single GSW. I will never forget that kid or the lessons I learned from him. He's also the one that made me a firm believer in exit wounds.

As far as body armor goes, what coverage does he have? Does it stop at the waist or is their groin protection? Who knows, and who wants to waste time and ammo finding out? Remember, we're talking self defense. I don't know who comes up with these things, but I suspect it was something brought back from the battlefield that really doesn't apply to the civilian world.

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Old 04-14-2013, 10:32 AM   #130
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Actually these findings are coming from law enforcement. Soldiers are taught to shoot center mass. This will probably change very soon, especially with body armor being more available. I found this article from a law enforcement and military instructor. It is very interesting and supports what I have been told by LEOs.
http://shootrite.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/anatomy-and-center-mass/
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