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Which gun is better for the night stand?


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Old 04-11-2013, 05:00 PM   #111
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I was also always taught to aim Center Of Mass. But in the last class I took to get my Concealed Carry Permit, they stated that shooting at the cradle area on the body, i.e., hip to hip and groin area, that a shot there would immediately disable the threat as he/she would not be able to stand at all. I had never heard of this. Even in combat training in the Corps I was never taught this. I'm not challenging what you've said at all, Oly, just wondering if you or anyone else had ever heard of this tactic? I keep a 1911 in .38 Super +P bedside and a shotgun loaded with 00 buck above the door. I have no more kids at home, so that's no concern. When the grandkids come over, a trigger-lock goes on the shotgun and the 1911 is on my hip, as always during waking hours.
I hear that certain law enforcement agencies are also taught to shoot in the hip area. I have been teaching this myself. Perfect place to hit the spine, plus the individual bends over as a reflex. Also great place to shoot when there is always the possibility of body armor. More target then the head. I always place a small plate on the head, chest and hip area of the human target when I am at the range.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:16 PM   #112
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for home protection where concealment is not a concern, the firearm with which one uses should not be based on caliber,size, or ammunition capacity. but IMHO that you should use whatever firearm you are most comfortable with, and that you can place the most rounds on target. regardless if thats a pistol, shotty or AR15. but, going back to your two choices, go with the 9mm.
I go along with the gun you are the most proficient with. I am a expert with the .45 ACP 1911, and feel I can place my shots precisely on target under any condition, cutting down on the needed for high capacity. Another plus is the stopping power of a .45.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:23 PM   #113
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i keep a 1911 cambered at .22 lr
intimidating yet not ripping thru walls ( i have little children)
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:29 AM   #114
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I was also always taught to aim Center Of Mass. But in the last class I took to get my Concealed Carry Permit, they stated that shooting at the cradle area on the body, i.e., hip to hip and groin area, that a shot there would immediately disable the threat as he/she would not be able to stand at all. I had never heard of this. Even in combat training in the Corps I was never taught this. I'm not challenging what you've said at all, Oly, just wondering if you or anyone else had ever heard of this tactic? I keep a 1911 in .38 Super +P bedside and a shotgun loaded with 00 buck above the door. I have no more kids at home, so that's no concern. When the grandkids come over, a trigger-lock goes on the shotgun and the 1911 is on my hip, as always during waking hours.
The Navy teaches, or taught, shooting people in the pelvis, knees, and shins with buckshot. The knee/shin shots were accomplished by skipping pellets off the deck. Perfect shooting positions and magic bullets that only hit and penetrate what the shooter intended just don't exist in the real world. Change angles, change targets, changes the areas you shoot through, or accept the risk of over-penetration. If someone knows of a magic bullet that prevents over-penetration through dry wall but penetrates acceptably through meat, I'd love to hear about it.

If you're more concerned with penetrating the target than connecting with it, I think you're worried about the wrong things. Don't shoot .30 caliber rifles in the house, don't shoot pistols in the house, and don't shoot shotguns in the house if you're really that concerned about penetration. Standard 5.56MM 55 grain FMJ (M193/XM193) was and is better if over-penetration is a concern. Anybody who feels otherwise should go test their theories for themselves.

Doesn't this sorta relate back to a basic firearm safety rule?

If all you have is a shotgun or pistol and the intruder has soft body armor (a vest), how else do you intend to bring him down? The torso and legs are much bigger targets than the head is. Yet another reason to use 556 for home defense.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:42 AM   #115
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The Navy teaches, or taught, shooting people in the pelvis, knees, and shins with buckshot. The knee/shin shots were accomplished by skipping pellets off the deck. Perfect shooting positions and magic bullets that only hit and penetrate what the shooter intended just don't exist in the real world. Change angles, change targets, changes the areas you shoot through, or accept the risk of over-penetration. If someone knows of a magic bullet that prevents over-penetration through dry wall but penetrates acceptably through meat, I'd love to hear about it.

If you're more concerned with penetrating the target than connecting with it, I think you're worried about the wrong things. Don't shoot .30 caliber rifles in the house, don't shoot pistols in the house, and don't shoot shotguns in the house if you're really that concerned about penetration. Standard 5.56MM 55 grain FMJ (M193/XM193) was and is better if over-penetration is a concern. Anybody who feels otherwise should go test their theories for themselves.

Doesn't this sorta relate back to a basic firearm safety rule?

If all you have is a shotgun or pistol and the intruder has soft body armor (a vest), how else do you intend to bring him down? The torso and legs are much bigger targets than the head is. Yet another reason to use 556 for home defense.
i see why you favor an AR, but i still believe the 12 ga with buckshot is much more effective. IMO, under stressful situation, the AR or even a pistol require more precision in aiming than a shotgun. even if an d that's a huge if, the BG were wearing a vest (soft armor) then if the first shot doesn't stop or deter him, them multiple follow-up shots will be taken.

it's kind of hard for a BG to be aggresive if his head is missing!
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:04 AM   #116
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Shooting at the pelvis area is effective. I train for this in addition to center mass for a couple reasons.

1)Dirt bags wearing body armor.

2)Point shooting from the hip in a close in SD encounter.

Through training, I've learned that the pelvis tends to funnel bullets into the upper body. It can also disable the attacker as previously mentioned in this thread. Something to think about at your next range trip.
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:24 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by ReconSpider View Post
I was also always taught to aim Center Of Mass. But in the last class I took to get my Concealed Carry Permit, they stated that shooting at the cradle area on the body, i.e., hip to hip and groin area, that a shot there would immediately disable the threat as he/she would not be able to stand at all. I had never heard of this. Even in combat training in the Corps I was never taught this. I'm not challenging what you've said at all, Oly, just wondering if you or anyone else had ever heard of this tactic? I keep a 1911 in .38 Super +P bedside and a shotgun loaded with 00 buck above the door. I have no more kids at home, so that's no concern. When the grandkids come over, a trigger-lock goes on the shotgun and the 1911 is on my hip, as always during waking hours.
I've heard of this technique, and I've definitely given it considered time to wander around in my head, largely as a Plan B should I ever find myself confronted with a bad guy that doesn't go down with after a string of CoM hits.

Obviously, this technique suggests that enough power is required to break the pelvis. I'm not sure that a lightweight 9mm bullet can do that reliably.

I've also heard that the pelvic shot is not that simple. If you hit the BG in the pelvis and break it, yes he's going down right now. However, if you miss the bone, then there's no guarantees.

As for the 38 Super +P . . .

Last year I decided that a 1911 in 38 Super would be the Cat's Meow, both in IDPA and for self defense. My "PLAN" was to convert my 9mm Nighthawk Dominator to 38 Super for IDPA, then if that went well, I'd do the same with my 9mm Dan Wesson Guardian CCW gun.

So, I bought a Shuemann AE barrel and had the local 1911 'smith fit it to the Nighthawk. I had a helluva time with the semi-rimmed cases causing the top round jamming on the bottom of the feed ramp. Going to competition-style cases was the obvious solution, but that also defeated any cost effectiveness of the project.

The real surprise, however, came when I chronographed the defensive ammo. I was impressed with the data on Cor-Bon's web site; 125 gr DPX ran at 1450 FPS - nearly 600 ft lbs ME. Except, when I received the ammo I ordered, the box said 1350 FPS and the MW was down to 506. When, I ran it across the chronograph, it was even slower. Just 1291 FPS. So, I put the 9mm barrel back in and ran my usual 127 gr Winchester Ranger-T +P+ . . . 1289 FPS. Just 2 FPS slower, but 2 grains heavier made the 9mm Ranger-T a more potent round than the 38 Super.

So, while the 38 Super can be loaded hotter safer, my own experience with factory defensive ammo is that I can get the same or better results with Winchester Ranger-T. If only Ranger-T was easier to find.

As for the bedside gun and it's collateral duty as a self-defense gun . . . I have similar yet different criteria for the ideal bedside gun vs. the ideal CCW.

Bedside:
  • Powerful. As powerful as I can shoot accurately and rapidly in a full-size gun, preferably an all-stainless gun. That means either 40 or 45.
  • Intuitive. It must be absolutely intuitive point and shoot. Even though I shoot at least 10K rounds annually with my 1911's, Murphy says I may fumble the thumb safety if I have to grab & shoot.
  • Natural point of aim. It needs to be a gun that shoots where I point it naturally. I may not have time to focus on the front sight. Besides, it's entirely possible I might not even be able to see the front sight. In fact, it's entirely possible I won't have my glasses on, so while I'll be able to see the mid-range stuff like the bad guy OK, I need my glasses to focus on something close like the sights.
  • Laser. I've been in one stand-off with a bad guy and my focus was 100% on him. I didn't want to shoot him if he behaved, but if he didn't behave he was getting a load of 00 buck. My point is that I'd like to be able to "aim" while simultaneously having both eyes open and on the target and surroundings.
  • Light. I have 2 hand lights on the bedstand, but I want a tactical light on the gun too. preferably a strobe light.
  • Ammo. More is better and my nightstand never complains about how heavy ammo is, so I want a high capacity mag.

Compare that to my CCW priorities:
  • Powerful. As powerful as I can shoot accurately and rapidly in a compact lightweight gun; either polymer or alloy frame. That means either 9mm or 45.
  • Intuitive. It must be intuitive relative to the type of gun I'm currently shooting most in competition. In other words, if I'm shooting 1911's in competition, then I carry a 1911. If I'm shooting M&Ps, then I carry an M&P. If I'm shooting revolvers, then I carry a Kahr K9 because it has a very revolver-like trigger. Again, Murphy says I may fumble the gun if it's different platform than the gun I'm shooting hundreds or thousands of rounds/week.
  • Light and thin for comfort. I know guys that swear their all steel full-size service pistol is comfortable to carry all day. Comfort is relative and carrying a bigger, thicker, heavier gun is less comfortable than carrying a smaller, thinner, lighter gun. Duh. I like to be comfortable.
  • Laser. I like lasers, however I don't like the additional thickness that the CT grip-style lasers add to 1911's, M&P's, etc.
  • Ammo. Single stack. If I'm going to an urban area where there's a chance of having multiple targets, then I'll pack a bigger gun and carry an extra mag or two.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:05 PM   #118
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I hear that certain law enforcement agencies are also taught to shoot in the hip area. I have been teaching this myself. Perfect place to hit the spine, plus the individual bends over as a reflex. Also great place to shoot when there is always the possibility of body armor. More target then the head. I always place a small plate on the head, chest and hip area of the human target when I am at the range.
Good idea with the plates.....thanks, I'll try that myself.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:09 PM   #119
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I go along with the gun you are the most proficient with. I am a expert with the .45 ACP 1911, and feel I can place my shots precisely on target under any condition, cutting down on the needed for high capacity. Another plus is the stopping power of a .45.
Good advice. When I was younger I used to qualify Expert with the 1911 (before they switched to the Beretta, POS) but since I've gotten older, I doubt I could. Just another reason I like the .38 Super, so much less recoil. Of course, that's just my personal preference.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:17 PM   #120
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i keep a 1911 cambered at .22 lr
intimidating yet not ripping thru walls ( i have little children)
Hate to say it but that's not enough stopping power. You could empty a .22LR clip into a very large man and he could still kill you. That lack of penetration also applies to the human body. I would think about 9mm at a minimum. Personally, I prefer .38 Super. Extremely accurate and a powerful, high velocity round. Another good option is a .12 gauge loaded with birdshot. Not too deep penetration through walls, etc. compared to .00 Buck shot. Just some ideas, Bro. Hopefully, you'll never need any of them.
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