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Old 07-18-2012, 02:27 AM   #61
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We have Stand your Ground Law. I have no expectation to retreat.

If you shoot off your mouth like a man, then you will get knocked on your azz like a man. If you threaten someones being or life, then prepare to die. I would have shot him, and would have been exonerated.

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Old 07-18-2012, 02:33 AM   #62
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This seems too incredible to be real.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:02 AM   #63
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Sometimes when you win, you win, and sometimes when you 'win' you lose. It would've been stupid to shoot a teen-aged boy because he's feeling the flush of testosterone and wants to be the 'Big Man', at least in his own eyes if no one else's.

I like to think I would've left with my child earlier. I wouldn't have hung around if things were going from bad to worse. I wouldn't have risked my child, I don't think.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:17 AM   #64
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This thread already has 7 pages, I'm not going through them all.

Mountaineer, stupid kids are more dangerous than stupid adults. An adult is more likely to hesitate or rethink a decision. A teens mind simply operates differently (this has been proven time and again in the medical field), because quite literally their thinking processes are not fully developed. Think of it this way, how many of us got into schoolyard fights as kids? Now compare that to how many of us get into fistfights as adults.

If your question is, "could I have shot the kid and lived with myself afterward", that's only for you to say.

I can say that I would have had no problem shooting his punk ass. He was a threat to you AND your little girl. I can't say I wouldn't have lost sleep over it, but I can say I MAY not.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:46 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dks7895

No. Not what I said. This took place at a public access swim area. The OP is not the owner of the property nor is he empowered to enforce the rules of that area. He only has control over himself and his daughter. He had the choice to either leave or ignore them. He chose to try and control the situation and it back fired. The old man getting involved was fuel to the fire. If the mother didn't smack the kid and end it, think of how it would have gone down. The point I am making is that the OP had alternatives that could have avoided this all together. This all started because some teens dropped the f bomb. After the first..."hey knock it off, there are kids here" was ignored...I would have simply left.

Sorry if I continue to repeat myself. Maybe I should take my own advice.
So...by the reasoning you keep giving, you seem to have two options, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not trying to bash you, but I really want to see if you can come up with something better. I'm also not saying the situation as it happened is a better option, let's not even consider it.

Let's say your confronted with the same situation, except you don't confront the teens. If you have a child (I assume you do, correct me if you don't), then you know that what you want or hope your kid to/will do, (ignore the situation) isn't always what they really WILL do.

You say, to paraphrase, ignore the language, hope your kid does the same, and use it as a teaching experience.

OR you say, to paraphrase, leave the area.

Okay. Neither of those options are acceptable to me, and here's why:

I WILL NOT allow my kid to be exposed to such behavior. My kid would not be able to ignore it, and using it as a teaching opportunity is a great and noble choice, but it will call the attention of my child specifically to the behavior I want to avoid in him.

Also, allowing socially unacceptable behavior to RUN YOU OUT of a public place is not acceptable. No, I don't own it, mountaineer didn't own it, you don't own it, but NEITHER DO THEY. And for you, me or anybody to have to leave for not wanting a confrontation with such douche baggery is a spineless, gutless, yellow coward move.

So. Discarding the third option (confronting the douches), I find your options unacceptable. Can you think of any better? It would be nice to avoid confrontation, and avoid the initial problem to begin with, so I would like to know of a better option than confrontation, exposing my kid to such crap, or leaving an area I have every right to be.

Personally, I like the idea of calling the police and reporting a disturbance of the peace. Whether they do anything about it, who knows? It's a step in the right direction I think.

The OP didn't actually have the option, and was trying to leave the area. The other gentleman happened to find "mom" (I'm using that term VERY loosely) on his say to call the cops. The situation was out of his hands at that point, and I think he handled it from there quite well.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:04 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okdonk
Sorry to hear your princess didn't really enjoy the day. But she has a good dad who protects her.
If i were you, i'd always try to protect my precious one like u did. Probably i would give the boy a verbal warning and show him my gun at the same time. At least i tried to warn. The rest.. you all know how it will be.
Wouldn't you get in trouble for brandishing your weapon??
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:12 AM   #67
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Ballistix- while the law varies state to state, most will be similar to the law in Virginia-

18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operatedweapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearmor any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance,whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably inducefear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operatedweapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in themind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall notapply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense

Second, there is NOTHING that is more troublesome than being dead- although being a hospital patient with severe stab injuries runs a close second.

And yes, we have "kids" that are serving time in the Corrections system for Murder, Attempted Murder, Assault with a Deadly Weapon, etc.

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:24 AM   #68
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Mountaineer,

First, my apology for what is going to be a long post. Second, I apologize if any of this is a repeat. Normally I read an entire thread, but after reading your post, I knew none of the posts would change my opinion.

First, I agree wholeheartedly with what you did. While in most states you have a duty to retreat from a threatening situation, asking someone to behave properly in a public area should not have led to a threat of bodily injury or death, which is what that teenager eventually threatened. The measure in court is what a reasonable person would have done, an by your description, you were completely reasonable even as judged by the other bystanders that supported you.

Second, you should never be expected to throw your child into a different dangerous situation (drowning) to save them from an attacker. If you have the ability to defend against an attacker and it is legal in your state, don't complicate the situation. I noticed one reason you gave for not drawing is the psychological trauma of shooting someone in front of your daughter. If you are not going to train your daughter to shoot, you need to at least explain to her why daddy carries a gun and why a parent sometimes has to draw it to defend his family. Obviously this does not offset the trauma of seeing a shooting, but it prepares her for the possibility better than seeing it occur without preparation.

Third, you and every other person that carries, needs to drop the idea that the "Bad Guy" has a certain type. When I was a real estate agent, I sold a house to a Harley Davidson service writer, which led to a HD mechanic, and all of a sudden, I was the HD agent! This put me around a lot of "tough," long-haired, tattooed, bearded bikers, and I learned these were some of the nicest, friendliest family men you could ever meet. I no longer hold the pre-conceived idea that I can tell someone's character or intentions by how they dress. You could just as easily have had problems with the older man at the bottom of the steps (Maybe homeless and desperate for money) or one of the older ladies (bad reaction from abusing prescription pain killers?) as the teenagers. The fact is that anyone in public can be your enemy, and just because that little lady is DRESSED like a nun doesn't mean she isn't going to rob you (ever heard of a costume shop?). I'm not saying to go around paranoid, but condition yellow means aware of your surroundings and ready to respond. If properly prepared, you don't believe that anyone is "safe" or "dangerous" based on a beard or clothing...or age. Our soldiers in Vietnam were killed because they couldn't resolve in their heads in time that an eight-year-old was carrying an AK-47 or grenade and was willing to kill them. Parenting is NOT what it was in the 50's and there are eight-year-old gang members that will do anything to belong to their "family" (read "Gang"). This is for EVERYONE: the next time you see a bearded, tattooed guy on a Harley, consider that he could be an undercover police officer; and the next ten-year-old could knife you in your kidneys if you let him get behind you. You have to retrain your brain to see ALL possible threats and not just the obvious ones.

Finally, I do agree with the poster that drawing your weapon is usually the end of the encounter. I have had to draw five times and not fired, twice against knives. This does NOT mean to "whip it out" whenever you feel like it; I was justified in shooting every time I drew, but the situation de-escalated upon the gun's appearance. Your problem was not wanting to draw in front of your daughter, which, as I said above, should be addressed with training or a discussion on the subject.

Mountaineer, you're a good father and were reasonable in your actions. You would've been justified in shooting the teen ha he approached the 21' "Red Zone" around you and your daughter. I would've drawn at 50' to give him a chance to rethink his life decision before I had to fire. The fact that his mother had to use physical abuse to get them to listen at all is a sad comment on the state of parenting in America today.

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:37 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbwar15

I can also say I have personally drawn my weapon and aimed it at a man in Walmart parking lot. And I did tell the police I drew and aimed my gun. Nothing happened they took my gun Ltc and drivers license. Ran my info gave me my stuff back made a report and told me to have a nice day.
If you unholster your weapon, ALWAYS call the police, even after it's over. The above quote is how the police handle it 95% of the time. They realize you were the victim and simply de-escalated the situation, but it makes their job easier if some bystander later makes a "man with gun" report.

And if you unholster your weapon, NEVER fire a warning shot. A warning shot is NOT a justified use of your weapon. You are responsible for every round sent down range and the damage it does. Warning shots have killed innocent people over a mile away an have ricocheted into innocent bystanders when fired at the ground. Every round fired should be for the same reason: center-of-mass to stop the attack.
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“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.). Thomas Jefferson

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-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick1967
People not stepping up and pretending it is not their business is what is destroying this nation. When evil people are not put in check they continue to get worse. You did the right thing. And dont believe any stooge that tells you different.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke-
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-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

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