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Old 09-14-2009, 03:25 AM   #11
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Kain, take a look at some of the articles on The Box O'Truth (The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing), while it's not cutting edge scientific research it's quite graffic and enjoyable.

That test seemed to agree with the previous FBI tests.

Full Metal Jacket rounds vs. Clothing: Clothing dosen't make a difference.
Hollow point rounds vs. Clothing: Bullet acts like a full metal jacket round

So, it seems like heavy clothing signifigantly effecting ballistics is more myth than fact. It may reduce the lethality of hollow point rounds, but does so regardless of caliber. So, carrying a higher caliber round in the winter time is apparantly unnecessary. Moreover in the case of hollow point ammunition larger caliber may even be counter productive, as the greater surface area drags more passing through clothing.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:44 AM   #12
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Based on the box of Truth, I think it would be MORE effective to carry .45 ACP than other rounds, because .45 ball is better than any other FMJ round available.

I figured clothing would hurt expansion somewhat, but I didn't realize that JHP didn't expand at all with thick clothing... Man I need to get a 1911 for my concealed carry. KY winters get bitter cold.

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Old 09-14-2009, 04:59 AM   #13
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So, carrying a higher caliber round in the winter time is apparantly unnecessary. Moreover in the case of hollow point ammunition larger caliber may even be counter productive, as the greater surface area drags more passing through clothing.
Luckily for me in Argentina, the nice folks at the federal government made my life easier by banning hollow points for self defense. We're stuck with FMJ or LRN.

Anyway, if winter clothes are going to keep the bullet from expanding, then you might want to use ammo that makes bigger holes. There's some truth to the saying "a 9mm might expand, but a .45 won't shrink".
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:42 AM   #14
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I've read several people mention wanting to carry larger calibers for personal defense in the winter in colder climates to counter act the effects of additional clothing an attacker would likely be wearing. I just got to wondering...does the extra clothing really matter? I mean even a heavy winter parka is mostly just air. With the possible exception of leather it seems to me that most clothing materials would have a negligable effect on ballistics if any. Further more wouldn't you more worry about an attacker being fatter or more muscular than average? Seems physical bulk would have a greater overall impact on slowing a bullet. Has any real testing been done on this topic, or is this just heresay?
Not really sure. I would think a bullet would kill someone all the same, regardless of how heavy they are or what clothing they were wearing. Can a normal person buy body armor anywhere? Or is that illegal too?
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:44 AM   #15
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Based on the box of Truth, I think it would be MORE effective to carry .45 ACP than other rounds, because .45 ball is better than any other FMJ round available.

I figured clothing would hurt expansion somewhat, but I didn't realize that JHP didn't expand at all with thick clothing... Man I need to get a 1911 for my concealed carry. KY winters get bitter cold.
I'm a 1911 .45 fan at heart, but would 9mm FMJ be a good round to carry for concealment? 9mm FMJ has excellent penetration and it's accurate. Only problem with it is it lacks stopping power compared to .45.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:06 PM   #16
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I'm a 1911 .45 fan at heart, but would 9mm FMJ be a good round to carry for concealment? 9mm FMJ has excellent penetration and it's accurate. Only problem with it is it lacks stopping power compared to .45.
Isn't the point of carrying any round to get "stopping power"? I want the best stopping any pistol round can get me. And historically, .45 ACP FMJ is much better than 9mm FMJ...
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:18 PM   #17
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Isn't the point of carrying any round to get "stopping power"? I want the best stopping any pistol round can get me. And historically, .45 ACP FMJ is much better than 9mm FMJ...
And that's half the reason why I prefer a .45 to a 9mm. 9mm from what I hear overpenetrates, at least with FMJ. Plus side with 9mm is its availability, lower cost compared to other calibers, plus should you have to use your CCW, you're less likely to get nailed to the wall by lawyers and such because 9mm is what police carry, it's not as lethal of a round as .45ACP or something bigger, therefore the average citizen is more justified in self defense with a 9mm vs. something more lethal like a .45ACP. Still when you weigh in the upsides of 9mm, I still would rather have a .45ACP. More stopping power. I mean really, for a conceal carry, are 10 or more rounds really necessary? Nice to have, but is it a necessity? No. 8 rounds is plenty. Especially with .45ACP where one shot can take your target down as opposed to a few shots with a 9mm FMJ.

If it were me, I'd go 1911 all the way, no questions asked. Colt is #1 in my book. If a .45ACP round isn't enough, go for a .38 Special snub-nose because you can put .357 Magnum rounds in it. I'm sure you can also get revolvers made for .357 or .44 that have really short barrels like a snub-nose.
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:28 PM   #18
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Isn't the point of carrying any round to get "stopping power"? I want the best stopping any pistol round can get me. And historically, .45 ACP FMJ is much better than 9mm FMJ...
Still, accuracy is a factor to a point too. Availability, cost and the question of whether or not should you have to pull your CCW, are you legally justified in using that amount of force? I have heard of people getting in trouble because they had a 10mm or something of bigger caliber where the state said they did not need to use that amount of force. It sort of eliminates the point of conceal carry, but still, I can't afford a good lawyer and don't want to get prosecuted by the state.
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:04 AM   #19
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I have heard of people getting in trouble because they had a 10mm or something of bigger caliber where the state said they did not need to use that amount of force. It sort of eliminates the point of conceal carry, but still, I can't afford a good lawyer and don't want to get prosecuted by the state.
Do you have any sources on that claim?

I have never heard of anyone, in a legitimate shoot, that was taken to task on the size of their weapon in respect to an otherwise clean case. Never once.

Fact is, many police departments ISSUE .45 ACP as their carry gun of choice. Tacoma PD happens to be a department local to me that does so. Many other agencies issues the .40S&W to their officers.

The .40 was basically designed to be a hi-cap attempt at .45 power for smaller handed FBI agents. ( and any lawyer with a halfway decent understanding of the problem at hand can make that arguement all day long.

Even if you shot someone with a shotgun, if it was a justified case of self defense, they are not going to turn the case into "non-justified" because the guy is "twice as dead".

JD
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:21 AM   #20
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Do you have any sources on that claim?

I have never heard of anyone, in a legitimate shoot, that was taken to task on the size of their weapon in respect to an otherwise clean case. Never once.

Even if you shot someone with a shotgun, if it was a justified case of self defense, they are not going to turn the case into "non-justified" because the guy is "twice as dead".

JD
Read it somewhere on the web. Don't recall where exactly. I don't know if anyone else knows or has this law in their state, but I heard here in Wisconsin, it's illegal to pull a gun on a home invader unless they are also carrying a gun. Like you can only respond with equal force or something? Anyone heard of this before? I don't know if such a law exists, it was just a rumor going around at work that we were talking about.
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