Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection > church & guns

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-08-2014, 02:57 AM   #301
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: West Monroe,Louisiana
Posts: 378
Liked 274 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 80

Default

Quote:
Oh, in case you are wondering... I LOVE my job, I LOVE my church, and I LOVE the community in which we minister. God is amazing!! And despite all that above, there are so many more wonderful things about being here... I wouldn't change it for the world (except of course the crime and social degradation).
Good stuff. I like this:
Quote:
Praise be to the Lord my Rock,
who trains my hands for war,
my fingers for battle.
I pray I will never need to use a gun, but if I do...
__________________
Fred_G is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 07:41 AM   #302
Devil's Advocate and Provocateur
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
TekGreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cincinnati,OH
Posts: 1,839
Liked 1274 Times on 668 Posts
Likes Given: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staidan View Post
I'm a pastor of an urban, multinational church in Houston. I have seen at our church just this past year...

* Several homeless folks verbally abusive toward our staff.
* A gang member seeking refuge from his gang and running from law enforcement.
* Several mentally/emotionally unstable individuals asking for spiritual counsel.
* A con artist who may have been packing heat at events (holding small purse tightly under arm). She threatened some of our leaders and even said she would sue the church unless we paid her a certain amount (idiot!).
* The Denny's across the street was robbed by armed men (several employees were pistol-whipped).
* Shots fired on the street next to church parking lot while scouts were meeting outside.
* Our next door neighbor was an international drug dealer; we didn't let our kids play outside for two years. He was finally busted by joint DEA/FBI, now serving 30 to life. But one night he had a shoot out with thugs who pursued him into his home. And we regularly had mysterious cars pulling up outside our house at all hours.
* My wife was "followed" while jogging one early, dark morning. A few weeks later a teenage girl was abducted. My wife no longer runs in our neighborhood.
* A retired minister who attended our church was shot in the head at his home not far from our church.
* We routinely witness the result of shootings, arrests, and not so nice things happening (e.g. prostitutes, drug deals).

I have never been a fan of carrying firearms, nor had I been around them much. I now own one (Love my Sig SP2022) and will soon be CHL holder. I am at the range at least once a week, and I've become more aware at home and at church. I started a gun club at church so I would know who carries (and to have some fun!!), and that has brought some excellent conversations about establishing some sort of "Eyes and Ears" (security) team.

We live in a transitional community - from middle class suburban to lower income urban - and the dangers are real (more real than our parishioners know). And I am VERY THANKFUL to know we have a good number of CHL folks who carry at church; I like that they are trained to some degree. We also have law enforcement who attend, and who have told me, "If something goes down, just hit the ground, and you'll be safe!" LOL.

All that to say... As a pastor, I would want to know who in my church carries and is trained. But we are in a pretty rough context.

Oh, in case you are wondering... I LOVE my job, I LOVE my church, and I LOVE the community in which we minister. God is amazing!! And despite all that above, there are so many more wonderful things about being here... I wouldn't change it for the world (except of course the crime and social degradation).
Staidan, kudos to you! Both for staying where you are and continuing to minister to those most in need and also for taking a proactive approach to your security problem. I don't believe that God expects any of us to give our lives needlessly to criminals, and you are responsible for more than yourself. Your family and parishioners should feel safer knowing what you have done to protect them.

I would suggest, besides having a loose coalition of concealed carry volunteers as your security force, that you maybe suggest to one of your Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) that he train a small core of your Volunteers monthly. Choose a person to lead that is the most gregarious and open to civilian carry. You could also require that your core security people take a yearly qualifying training class at a local tactical school or have a trainer come in. Many have basic pistol courses (good for the minimum qualifier) and then further classes that build further training on those basics. Many of these mimic police training and not only concentrate on shooting, but also shoot/no shoot scenarios that address threat identification and when NOT to pull the trigger. Classes like this could be paid for by the volunteers or may be supplemented by church funds. Also, the church should be able to negotiate a group/ongoing rate with a trainer or school to help with costs. Check with your legal counsel, but training like this usually helps mitigate lawsuits and the church's liability.

Here are a few training facilities in your area that should be able to help out. Interview them and go with your gut if a tie exists. You'll spend days with these people and comfort is a major concern!

Tactical Defense Shooting

360 Tactical Training

Advanced Weapons and Training Tactics

Preston Tactical

Let us know what happens and how your development goes!
__________________

.
.
“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.). Thomas Jefferson

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

-Edmund Burke, Loosely translated from Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents. (1770)

TekGreg is offline  
Axxe55 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 08:26 AM   #303
Podcast Host/ American Patriot/DAV!
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
DrFootball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northern Arizona(Fmr. NYC & L.I.)
Posts: 6,979
Liked 2751 Times on 1893 Posts
Likes Given: 558

Default church & guns

Wow! You sure thats Houston and not the East Village of Manhattan in NYC? That sounds like the Police Blotter of the Night shift at the 9th pct. Incidentally, that's where the TV series "NYPD Blue" was filmed, right across the street from the HS I taught at for 14 years, and was Asst. Dean the last 6 of my career.

At least Pastor, you realize that G-D can not help you or your flock if you all don't help your self to the training to keep yourself and your parishioners SAFE. You will be happy to know that myself and my fellow followers of The Jewish Faith( new reformed Messanic Jewish temple and congregation) also realize that we need a "Protection" team. Our Rabbi is also an oncologist and a former US Navy Corpsman and Navy Doctor. After we "Bring in" our new Torah in a few weeks, I will begin to train with 5 other congregation members. 3 other military aside from myself, and 2 with less experience, but one retired lady who runs 5 miles per run 3X a week, and our Cantor's sister, who lives with him and his wife.

I had a very stimulating discussion Fri night at temple after the Service. After about 10 minutes of talk among the men(and women) at the Table he asked me "are you carrying a gun right now Dr. Bill?" "yes Dr. Mark, but if I didn't tell you, you would not know, because I carry my burden in silence. It is my place" We spoke again yesterday and I'm going with him on Sunday to our indoor range for him to try out a few of my guns, and to rent a few from the shop. Because my wife and I are practically regulars there, and I am "working" on them to become Sponsors of our podcast here, they are only too happy to help us.


Sent from my iPad using Firearms Talk

__________________

Dr. Bill(Dr.Football)
CWO-4 US ARMY Ret./Med.
Proud to be a Soldier, Proud to be a Night Stalker!
The 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment(S.O.A.R.) The Army's Taxi for Special Operators *NSDQ*


Last edited by DrFootball; 05-08-2014 at 08:42 AM.
DrFootball is offline  
Axxe55 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 02:08 PM   #304
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
GonzoLonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Antonio,Texas
Posts: 164
Liked 73 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 103

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_G View Post
Good stuff. I like this:

I pray I will never need to use a gun, but if I do...

Hey Fred, I always liked that saying and me and my wife both bought these for our AR's.
img_0009.jpg   img_0010.jpg  
__________________
GonzoLonzo is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 02:14 PM   #305
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pendleton, 29670,South Carolina
Posts: 2,481
Liked 1144 Times on 671 Posts
Likes Given: 1680

Default

Thank you, Staidan, for your concern and your proactive tackling of the problems.
I live in upstate South Carolina,, a region along I-85, and about 30 miles on each side of it. In this region there are approximately a million people. Every evening on the local news telecasts, there are reports of 3 or 4 murders, many robberies and assaults. It really caught my attention, since I moved here from Indianapolis. In Indy, a city of a million people, there are usually approximately 100 murders per year. Here, in a much larger area, with the same number of a million people, there are 10 times as many murders, and so many other crimes that people become complacent about it. The Pastor of my church, with a membership of about 300 people, is OK with members carrying, and he himself, is among us. He has shooting contests 4 times a year, and teenagers are invited to allow them to learn safe handling of firearms.
So far as weapons are concerned, even Peter is known to have carried a sword, and possibly some of the other disciples.
My point is, that the RTKBA is alive and well in many places, including churches.

__________________
AIKIJUTSU is offline  
Axxe55 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 02:17 PM   #306
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
c3shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Third bunker on the right,Central Virginia
Posts: 16,310
Liked 8374 Times on 3623 Posts
Likes Given: 1288

Default

Just as a footnote, per the Geneva Accords, the Hague Convention, Law of Land Warfare, et al- those agreements that set rules that govern the rules of war- Chaplains are permitted to carry sidearms.

Wait-what? A CHAPLAIN- with a sidearm? Why for? The justification given in the documents is "to permit a chaplain to protect disabled, wounded persons from wild animals".

Wisely, they never defined the term "wild animals".

__________________

What we have heah is.... failure to communicate.

c3shooter is offline  
5
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 04:01 PM   #307
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jakeball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 93
Liked 38 Times on 18 Posts

Default

I go to church in Cleveland, in the ghetto. 3 blocks from where those 3 girls were abducted for 10 yrs. The pastor has been assaulted, cars and church broken into constantly, property damage often, and among other things. And i hear this argument all the time; "why not just go somewhere else?".

Well ill tell you why, cause the poor in that ghetto need God too, the life criminals still need salvation. Because God didnt come down for the righteous but for the unrighteous.

So no im not gonna move, im not gonna let the sins of others prevent me from helping the needy. Ill just carry a gun, go on throughout my day praising God and helping the lost find their way.


Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk

__________________
jakeball is offline  
7
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 08:04 PM   #308
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pendleton, 29670,South Carolina
Posts: 2,481
Liked 1144 Times on 671 Posts
Likes Given: 1680

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeball View Post
I go to church in Cleveland, in the ghetto. 3 blocks from where those 3 girls were abducted for 10 yrs. The pastor has been assaulted, cars and church broken into constantly, property damage often, and among other things. And i hear this argument all the time; "why not just go somewhere else?".

Well ill tell you why, cause the poor in that ghetto need God too, the life criminals still need salvation. Because God didnt come down for the righteous but for the unrighteous.

So no im not gonna move, im not gonna let the sins of others prevent me from helping the needy. Ill just carry a gun, go on throughout my day praising God and helping the lost find their way.


Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
Amen. (No pun intended). You can't clean up a pig sty by staying in the living room. And for some of the kids in the neighborhood, the church-going people may be the only contact they have with normal, reasonable people.
__________________
AIKIJUTSU is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 08:59 PM   #309
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jakeball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 93
Liked 38 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIKIJUTSU View Post
Amen. (No pun intended). You can't clean up a pig sty by staying in the living room. And for some of the kids in the neighborhood, the church-going people may be the only contact they have with normal, reasonable people.

Exactly!


Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
__________________
jakeball is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2014, 11:18 PM   #310
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Axxe55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Texas, Texas!
Posts: 27,101
Liked 19790 Times on 11235 Posts
Likes Given: 49869

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeball View Post
I go to church in Cleveland, in the ghetto. 3 blocks from where those 3 girls were abducted for 10 yrs. The pastor has been assaulted, cars and church broken into constantly, property damage often, and among other things. And i hear this argument all the time; "why not just go somewhere else?".

Well ill tell you why, cause the poor in that ghetto need God too, the life criminals still need salvation. Because God didnt come down for the righteous but for the unrighteous.

So no im not gonna move, im not gonna let the sins of others prevent me from helping the needy. Ill just carry a gun, go on throughout my day praising God and helping the lost find their way.


Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
well said Jake.

honestly, i can't know what going to a church in an area like that is like. i grew up going to small churches in very rural areas with small memberships.
__________________
Coming From The Village Of The Damned.
Resist All Tyranny And Oppression.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke.
Axxe55 is offline  
AIKIJUTSU Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Church & State: Which would you rather have? ScottA Politics, Religion and Controversy 25 12-24-2013 09:42 PM
New guy from Falls Church, Va tlmathe Virginia Gun Forum 4 05-10-2013 09:18 PM
Slayer goes to church suprdave The Club House 7 05-18-2010 04:20 AM
Church Buy Backs Righteous The Club House 7 01-29-2008 09:59 PM