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Old 04-28-2013, 07:24 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by triggerjob View Post
Yes, aiming I hand higher increases your chance of a miss by the size of the hand. Regardless of your shooting skill, or even the weapon all shots will land within a "cone" of probability. The closer you are to your target the smaller the end of the cone becomes, but it is still there. Even highly skilled shooters have a cone of probabillity in their case it is smaller too. So as you move your aim point the whole cone moves with it. Now if you are trained to fire a series of shots like most law enforcement are, then each follow up shot has a larger cone or at least stringing, either way aim for the center.

Having said all that, in a self defense scenario you aren't going to need to worry about aiming anyway, so you had better stop training for bulleyes and start practicing instictive shooting. At realistic ranges 5 to 15 feet.

For some strange reason highly trained police can shoot 30 rounds at a subject 10 feet away and only hit him once, but your average untrained housewife can hit a burglar right betwen the eyes with the first shot out a gun she's never even fired before, go figure.
Very good points. It's one if the reasons I like to suggest that folks get involved with local clubs and competitions that are scenario based. I do find that with a handgun I use my sights much less on close targets and really only tend to use them as a quic reference. But do tend to point and focus on the upper torso, because I tend to over compensate and drive my muzzle down for follow up shots. I f the scenario has cover and longer range targets I slow down a bit and use sights.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:09 AM   #62
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Try gripping your pistol so tight your knuckles turn white, that will solve the muzzle push, I had the same issue. At least as you pull the trigger anyway ;-0

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:13 AM   #63
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The body does have limits. I know you are in the medical field, but do you have combat medical experience? I work on an Army post that has the largest military hospital outside the US. The war wounded are first transported here for treatment. Talkng to some of the doctors and my combat medical friends, I can tell you that a lot of gun shot wounds are to the extremeties. The trauma of being struck in these areas is quite devastating and puts you out of the fight very quickly. I can also tell you that a second shot to the body is what normally causes a kill. This is also been support by civilian medical statistics. Feel free to research this....
I'm not trying to make light of the fantastic job your doctors and core staff do, but you have to admit that in your location they are only seeing the survivors, they are seeing them hours later after field stabilization, and the people they are seeing weren't shot by snub nosed .38 Specials.

Have I ever worked as a combat medic? At times it felt like it, but if you mean a military war zone, no. Does it matter? Not that much except for the ballistics of the weapons used. Physiology doesn't change that much, but the weapon used has a major effect on that physiology. What may be a ho hum subject when rifles are involved is much more important subject when dealing with the reduced capabilities and capacities of a handgun.

The purpose of this thread is to give concealed carry people a better understanding of what they should be trying for in a self-defense situation. It is to identify errors in training and tactics, and hopefully give the average person a better understanding of where the vital organs are located. It is to give them a fighting chance to take control of a situation without blowing completely through the limited amount of ammo they are carrying.

Many people are making a huge sacrifice in caliber in order to have a more concealable firearm. For those people this information is even more important. Bringing in the the ballistics of the .223 rifle round does not do them any good at all. The folder title is Concealed Carry & Personal Protection, not Concealed Carry or Personal Protection. Let's try to keep this to defense weapons that are realistically concealable in every day civilian life.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:09 PM   #64
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Well said.

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:55 PM   #65
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I'm not trying to make light of the fantastic job your doctors and core staff do, but you have to admit that in your location they are only seeing the survivors, they are seeing them hours later after field stabilization, and the people they are seeing weren't shot by snub nosed .38 Specials.

Have I ever worked as a combat medic? At times it felt like it, but if you mean a military war zone, no. Does it matter? Not that much except for the ballistics of the weapons used. Physiology doesn't change that much, but the weapon used has a major effect on that physiology. What may be a ho hum subject when rifles are involved is much more important subject when dealing with the reduced capabilities and capacities of a handgun.

The purpose of this thread is to give concealed carry people a better understanding of what they should be trying for in a self-defense situation. It is to identify errors in training and tactics, and hopefully give the average person a better understanding of where the vital organs are located. It is to give them a fighting chance to take control of a situation without blowing completely through the limited amount of ammo they are carrying.

Many people are making a huge sacrifice in caliber in order to have a more concealable firearm. For those people this information is even more important. Bringing in the the ballistics of the .223 rifle round does not do them any good at all. The folder title is Concealed Carry & Personal Protection, not Concealed Carry or Personal Protection. Let's try to keep this to defense weapons that are realistically concealable in every day civilian life.
A lot of very good info on this thread. Doc you are correct about the priority of providing real world info for those with less experience in the 'art'. That is why I say keep using 'center mass' as your basic aim point because a 'hit' anywhere is better than a 'miss'! If you have the time and the ability to put the bullet in the upper torso do so, but MOST of the time the bandits will not 'stand still' for that!!!
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:04 PM   #66
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I thought this was one of those one hit drop threads and didn't read it, so just getting caught up. Great thread. Just to add to one of the early posts for new people regarding the pelvic girdle and upper thighs. While the BG may still be able to shoot, you have a good size femoral artery in both groins along with the hip socket. They will bleed out reasonably quick as well as likely get put to the ground. Still be able to fire but any advantage in a life and death battle. The center mass/chest best option as noted. But if the BG is wearing armor or you're in cover and only have a limited target area, something is better than nothing.

I think back to the LA bank robbers fully armored and the LEOs unable to take them down in a hail of gunfire, underpowered as they were.

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Old 04-29-2013, 08:39 PM   #67
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Just to add to one of the early posts for new people regarding the pelvic girdle and upper thighs. While the BG may still be able to shoot, you have a good size femoral artery in both groins along with the hip socket. They will bleed out reasonably quick as well as likely get put to the ground. Still be able to fire but any advantage in a life and death battle.
You make a valid point for a good alternative aim point. You have the femoral artery and vein in close proximity in the groin. Keep in mind that the average femoral artery diameter in an adult male is roughly one half inch with the femoral vein being very slightly smaller. As a guess I would say you have a target one to one and a half inches wide by a length of several inches depending on height. I certainly wouldn't rule this out as a viable target, but don't expect it to cause shock or unconsciousness as quickly as you would like.

Time for a little physiology lesson. One of the very first signs of shock in a trauma patient is an increase in blood pressure. This is the body's natural compensation mechanism to maintain blood flow to vital organs. The body will attempt to shut down all but the core circulation. Naturally, this can't be completely accomplished, but I think you get the idea. Interruption of a major vessel will actually cause better blood flow to the heart, lungs, kidneys, and brain for a very brief period. Shortly thereafter your body will lose the ability to compensate. The amount of time depends on the amount of blood lost.

I mentioned that for a good reason. The femoral artery hit will cause shock and possibly death if left untreated, but not as quickly as you think it will. This is one of the ones you have to watch out for if you attempt to render aid. Hang back for awhile. Your attacker is still able to fight, and in my experience could be for some time. The good part is that he won't be able to chase you.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:58 PM   #68
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A lot of very good info on this thread. Doc you are correct about the priority of providing real world info for those with less experience in the 'art'. That is why I say keep using 'center mass' as your basic aim point because a 'hit' anywhere is better than a 'miss'! If you have the time and the ability to put the bullet in the upper torso do so, but MOST of the time the bandits will not 'stand still' for that!!!
I didn't want to get into this, mainly because it means you have failed at some point. Situational awareness should help to prevent this in most cases, but it does happen. If you find yourself on the ground fighting your attacker the point blank head or chest shots are really your only viable shots. Yes, I know neck is an option, but the chance of hitting the spinal cord from that position is pretty slim without shooting yourself if the round over penetrates.

In the situation where the two of you are grappling with each other it is absolutely critical that you end the fight right now. I will use George Zimmerman as an example. NBC photos notwithstanding, that man was about to have his head pounded to mush. If he had not fired into the chest there is a very good chance he would have suffered much greater injuries or even death. Of course we will never know if it was a deliberate or accidental shot, but it certainly did take the fight out of his assailant.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:40 PM   #69
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I see center mass as a aiming point for the average person , it gives a bigger opportunity to not miss , Now with a bigger caliber creating more shock value I believe center mass is fine with a good HP round . Buy a block of ballistic gelatin and video it while shooting into it and see how much shock it creates with each caliber . Take for instance and this is going to be extreme , a 10mm pistol round they are humping along pretty fast and its a large round the gelatin is going to jump quite a bit , now put in a .338 Lapua and fire it into the gel block , Huge difference and very extreme difference , any mid section hit with the .338 is going to cause so much shock trauma its going to leave a person on the spot with a mid section hit . I know thats very extreme but its a proven point shock trauma will take the fight out pretty quick . That is why I always suggest a good self defense round in any carry / home protection gun whether its 5 shots or 17 shots .38 - .45 cal , rounds that open up big cause more shock trauma and lesser chances of pass thru and hitting someone else

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:59 PM   #70
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You make a valid point for a good alternative aim point. You have the femoral artery and vein in close proximity in the groin. Keep in mind that the average femoral artery diameter in an adult male is roughly one half inch with the femoral vein being very slightly smaller. As a guess I would say you have a target one to one and a half inches wide by a length of several inches depending on height. I certainly wouldn't rule this out as a viable target, but don't expect it to cause shock or unconsciousness as quickly as you would like.

Time for a little physiology lesson. One of the very first signs of shock in a trauma patient is an increase in blood pressure. This is the body's natural compensation mechanism to maintain blood flow to vital organs. The body will attempt to shut down all but the core circulation. Naturally, this can't be completely accomplished, but I think you get the idea. Interruption of a major vessel will actually cause better blood flow to the heart, lungs, kidneys, and brain for a very brief period. Shortly thereafter your body will lose the ability to compensate. The amount of time depends on the amount of blood lost.

I mentioned that for a good reason. The femoral artery hit will cause shock and possibly death if left untreated, but not as quickly as you think it will. This is one of the ones you have to watch out for if you attempt to render aid. Hang back for awhile. Your attacker is still able to fight, and in my experience could be for some time. The good part is that he won't be able to chase you.
Totally true. My thought was with a JHP, you have a chance of tearing that open and avoiding compartment syndrome at the same time since the thigh would have some significant damage, and it would be a laceration so likely wouldn't spasm shut. Thus while they would eventually clamp down the vascular system to the core in shock, it may cause enough disruption to their concentration with blood spurting out that it gives you a chance to find cover or get a better shot off. Plus a good chance of shattering the femur or ball and socket, which again will slow them down.

That's the thing about the one-shot kill myth. Unless it's a central head shot, the brain still has a supply of oxygen and can fuction. As long as the nervous system and appendages work and blood is flowing, there's still fight in the BG until they lose enough blood to lose consciousness/go into shock. These guys that are all coked up can get shot 20 times center mass and still fight, as any LEO will probably tell you.

Let me know if that's generally correct.

Two rounds from a shotgun should do it though.
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