Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection > The "Center Mass" Myth

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-28-2013, 04:21 PM   #51
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SSGN_Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,050
Liked 1908 Times on 1141 Posts
Likes Given: 405

Default

I'm a Navy Hospital Corpsman. Been deployed with Marines. Seen hits. I was trying to emphasize that this was mostly about handguns and close ranges. I do understand the theory behind aiming at the center if the torso to maximize hit potential. I have seen the difference in rifle wounds and handgun wounds. The only three fatal handgun wounds I've seen we're to the head all the others were moving, and had the ability to fire back except one who was hit 5 times. That last one was hit in the left thigh the left kidney, the liver, the left hand and grazed in the right shoulder. So yes I also understand that accuracy goes out the window under stress. That gunshot victim lived, but lost his left leg eventually. Getting hit in he leg dropped him from cracking his femur and then having it break the rest of the way. The fact that he got hit in two solid organs that provide a lot of blood filtering became the life threatening part of the equation.

Back to 5.56 trajectory, please take that beautiful Hera out to a range and shoot it at multiple known ranges. From a 50 meter zero the arc will not get that bullet 3 full meters high at 100 meters distance. That's over 9 feet high. My .30-30 with its renowned "rainbow" arc is not that severe. I've **** ARs in Service rifle matches out to 600 yards with iron sights and they do not require that much elevation change from 200 to 600. Just check it yourself you'll be impressed. With a carbine you might hit a little higher at 100 but with you 50 meter zero and your red dot. You should still be hitting upper torso of a full sized human silhouette at 100 meters without touching your sights with a center of mass hold.

9 meters high would require a 108 moa adjustment. Just doesn't sound mathematically correct. By the way I just got a tasker to go out to Germany in August for 30 days to do WW 2 remains recovery support. Don't know where in Germany I'll be but might be nice to have a beer and talk guns if the opportunity presents itself.

__________________

Last edited by SSGN_Doc; 04-28-2013 at 04:51 PM.
SSGN_Doc is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 04:29 PM   #52
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tackleberry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver,WA
Posts: 5,725
Liked 4424 Times on 2146 Posts
Likes Given: 1312

Default

Good AR info guys but as stated, Doc's recommendations are based on the lower lethality afforded by our EDC's.

I'll keep it simple and aim between the nipples!

Tack

__________________
Tackleberry1 is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 05:58 PM   #53
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SigArmored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: FT. Meyers,Fla.
Posts: 518
Liked 84 Times on 66 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Good AR info guys but as stated, Doc's recommendations are based on the lower lethality afforded by our EDC's.

I'll keep it simple and aim between the nipples!

Tack
Nipples? Did someone say nipples? Greeaaat another one of my favorite topics....:-)
__________________
SigArmored is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:04 PM   #54
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Jagermeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 6,815
Liked 3858 Times on 2304 Posts
Likes Given: 3233

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSGN_Doc View Post
I'm a Navy Hospital Corpsman. Been deployed with Marines. Seen hits. I was trying to emphasize that this was mostly about handguns and close ranges. I do understand the theory behind aiming at the center if the torso to maximize hit potential. I have seen the difference in rifle wounds and handgun wounds. The only three fatal handgun wounds I've seen we're to the head all the others were moving, and had the ability to fire back except one who was hit 5 times. That last one was hit in the left thigh the left kidney, the liver, the left hand and grazed in the right shoulder. So yes I also understand that accuracy goes out the window under stress. That gunshot victim lived, but lost his left leg eventually. Getting hit in he leg dropped him from cracking his femur and then having it break the rest of the way. The fact that he got hit in two solid organs that provide a lot of blood filtering became the life threatening part of the equation.

Back to 5.56 trajectory, please take that beautiful Hera out to a range and shoot it at multiple known ranges. From a 50 meter zero the arc will not get that bullet 3 full meters high at 100 meters distance. That's over 9 feet high. My .30-30 with its renowned "rainbow" arc is not that severe. I've **** ARs in Service rifle matches out to 600 yards with iron sights and they do not require that much elevation change from 200 to 600. Just check it yourself you'll be impressed. With a carbine you might hit a little higher at 100 but with you 50 meter zero and your red dot. You should still be hitting upper torso of a full sized human silhouette at 100 meters without touching your sights with a center of mass hold.

9 meters high would require a 108 moa adjustment. Just doesn't sound mathematically correct. By the way I just got a tasker to go out to Germany in August for 30 days to do WW 2 remains recovery support. Don't know where in Germany I'll be but might be nice to have a beer and talk guns if the opportunity presents itself.
I live in the Kaiserslautern area. Bases/posts include Landstuhl, Ramstein, Sembach, Kleber, Miesau, Pulaski, Vogelweh and Daenner. No more then 30 minutes between the furthest installations. We do have a Rod and Gun Club....
__________________
Jagermeister is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:06 PM   #55
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
danolator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 630
Liked 64 Times on 55 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

I've seen some people where that aim advice would put your shot at belly button level.

__________________
Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. My rod is a GLOCK and it comforts me
danolator is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:08 PM   #56
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9193 Times on 5052 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigArmored View Post

Nipples? Did someone say nipples? Greeaaat another one of my favorite topics....:-)
I like the whole breast myself. Thighs and legs also. Yup, there ain't much of the chicken that I DON'T like.
__________________
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:21 PM   #57
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
SSGN_Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,050
Liked 1908 Times on 1141 Posts
Likes Given: 405

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagermeister View Post
I live in the Kaiserslautern area. Bases/posts include Landstuhl, Ramstein, Sembach, Kleber, Miesau, Pulaski, Vogelweh and Daenner. No more then 30 minutes between the furthest installations. We do have a Rod and Gun Club....
So far the only part if Germany I've visited is the airport in Leipzig on my way to and from the sub for crew turnovers.
__________________
SSGN_Doc is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:27 PM   #58
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Jagermeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 6,815
Liked 3858 Times on 2304 Posts
Likes Given: 3233

Default

We do have Navy personel at Landstuhl Hospital (medical field) and at Sembach (reintegration).

__________________
Jagermeister is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:30 PM   #59
Big TOW
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WebleyFosbery38's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Irish Settlement CNY
Posts: 5,007
Liked 5498 Times on 2717 Posts
Likes Given: 5840

Default

I spent a couple years in Ansbach in the early 80's; good time, great beer, awesome food and great concerts! Enjoy yourself!

We were taught Center Mass was the easiest target at any distance and wounding was more desirable than killing due to the support factor and enemy intel gathering possibilities afterwards. the dead tell no tales and need zero help in the middle of a firefight, the injured need max or they are toast and if they live, they might tell us something we need to know! The 5.56mm is really a tiny projectile (but fast), its not meant to inflict mass area trauma. It can do some serious traveling inside the body if it glances off a heavy bone ripping things up pretty good in between.

That whole deal supposes that the Enemy cares about their injured; unfortunately, Islamic terrorists are more likely to disappear into the hills or ville than worry about their injured. They lack the medical resources to deal with most wounded and they would likely die anyways, at least we will try to save them and likely they will survive.

Some will even run over their own brother to save their sorry asses, "Screw him, Mom can me make another brother"...

__________________

Last edited by WebleyFosbery38; 04-28-2013 at 06:37 PM.
WebleyFosbery38 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:09 PM   #60
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 258
Liked 23 Times on 19 Posts

Default

Yes, aiming I hand higher increases your chance of a miss by the size of the hand. Regardless of your shooting skill, or even the weapon all shots will land within a "cone" of probability. The closer you are to your target the smaller the end of the cone becomes, but it is still there. Even highly skilled shooters have a cone of probabillity in their case it is smaller too. So as you move your aim point the whole cone moves with it. Now if you are trained to fire a series of shots like most law enforcement are, then each follow up shot has a larger cone or at least stringing, either way aim for the center.

Having said all that, in a self defense scenario you aren't going to need to worry about aiming anyway, so you had better stop training for bulleyes and start practicing instictive shooting. At realistic ranges 5 to 15 feet.

For some strange reason highly trained police can shoot 30 rounds at a subject 10 feet away and only hit him once, but your average untrained housewife can hit a burglar right betwen the eyes with the first shot out a gun she's never even fired before, go figure.

__________________
triggerjob is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Expanded Background Checks Fail in the Senate - The Myth of the "Gun Show Loophole" BPNovum The Club House 3 04-18-2013 04:07 AM
The Myth About the Garand "Ping" Amsdorf Curio & Relic Discussion 25 02-09-2013 04:41 PM
Another mass shooting, another lunatic wielding an "assault rifle" 95sniper Legal and Activism 141 12-21-2012 01:06 PM
"Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings?" cnorman18 The Club House 26 04-17-2012 09:57 PM
Witloe Remington 1858 New Model Army "Lee" & "Grant" bprevolver Blackpowder & Musket 0 09-25-2008 11:11 PM