The "Center Mass" Myth - Page 3
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:02 PM   #21
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OK now that is a disturbing thought. I hadnt thought about that. I wasnt thinking about it. I was never here!
Online forums have been used as evidence before. I think it's been mentioned that this forum has had to cooperate with law enforcement authorities in the past, but I'm not sure.

There was a member once... "Kwikrnu". Real name Leonard something or other. He got in a bunch of trouble for OC'ing a draco pistol up in TN.

His posts, I believe on "the firing line", were used as evidence that he intentionally tried to mislead LE and civilians by painting the tip of his Draco with orange paint to make it look like a toy.

I try to be careful that I don't ever post anything anywhere, here, facebook, or even through private email, that I wouldn't be able to own in court. I'm sure I've posted some incriminated stuff somewhere, just look at that post count!! One of my favorite sayings, "A fool has much to say..."
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:04 PM   #22
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Good points and all true, but the 'center mass' AP came from hit probability. If any of you have ever played basketball you know if you keep an eye on the person's midsection (center mass) you are covering he can't fake you out. Thus in the 'real' gun fight, when things are moving rather fast and furious it is the 'best' place to try and get a HIT. Granted it is not the 'best' place to hit a person if you want to get the most effect from the bullet, but a hit in 'center mass' is better than a miss in the 'upper torso'!
We stress the need to get a 'good' hit in the upper torso when possible, but unless you have a good stationary shot keep'm 'center mass'!

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:08 PM   #23
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Great points concerning lethality and anatomy. However, I believe the context in which "center of mass" is normally used has less to do with a lethal hit than it does with reactionary targeting. IE: When the the adrenaline is pumping, don't think about aiming for specifics. Get a hit. The best way to do that is to aim for the largest target, center of mass.

Also, as txpossum mentioned, training involves multiple shots, not one and recoil would tend to walk the target box up the body to said lethal areas.
This is the truth as far as Army doctrine is concerned. The point in teaching soldiers who are training for WAR not SD to shoot center mass is for the purpose of increasing hit ratios on enemy combatants. Not to stop and think of a good place to shoot someone to immediately incapacitate or kill them. Just get a hit on the target, and move on to the next, so aim for the area of the target closest to the center. It also teaches a certain amount of muscle memory, you train to fire when your sight picture looks the same everytime as it falls on the center mass of the silhouette. You have to keep in mind that this is doctrine and is being taught to people that are brand new in the military and have never fired a weapon before. That's also why the same doctrine applies to the various types of targets used on a pop up qualification range. The targets past 75m (I think) are e type that stand a full meter tall, closer than that and they are smaller and present less of a target. This goes back to the iceberg comment made earlier, either way, you're taught to aim center mass to increase your hit probability and nothing more. Fancy shooting comes later in more specialied types of training for certain MOS soldiers.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:11 PM   #24
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And that's why I was trying to be careful not to be insulting. I don't know everyone's history.

Physically able, yes. But it caused him to stop momentarily in excruciating pain, and he was killed when he tried to rush me with a limp.

It was downtown Fallujah. And yeah, if I have someone intermittently firing at me over the hood of a car, I'll shoot them in the foot if it's the only thing I can hit, civilian world or no. But if you want to talk about playing rock hockey, then do you think it would be a good thing for your future prosecuting attorney to find you've been so thoroughly dissecting the human anatomy online and discussing exactly where would be the best place for your rounds to hit, that would cause immediate debilitation and quick death?

Not I. I'll stick with my old standby, hits count, misses don't. Have enough resources to stop the threat. When the threat is ended, so is your fight. That was a rule I maintained in actual acts of war.
Got him lol
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:11 PM   #25
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This is the truth as far as Army doctrine is concerned. The point in teaching soldiers who are training for WAR not SD to shoot center mass is for the purpose of increasing hit ratios on enemy combatants. Not to stop and think of a good place to shoot someone to immediately incapacitate or kill them.
My personal opinion is that this doctrine should go doubly for those NOT training for war.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:16 PM   #26
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My personal opinion is that this doctrine should go doubly for those NOT training for war.
I agree with you 100%
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:17 PM   #27
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But if you want to talk about playing rock hockey, then do you think it would be a good thing for your future prosecuting attorney to find you've been so thoroughly dissecting the human anatomy online and discussing exactly where would be the best place for your rounds to hit, that would cause immediate debilitation and quick death?
It is my biggest hope that I never have the need to worry about a prosecuting attorney. With that said I doubt my online presence would have too much of an impact considering my past training and experience. From the army to the LE academy to my degrees and experience in pre-hospital emergency care it's pretty obvious that I would know where to shoot by now. I'm going to be screwed anyway.

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It was downtown Fallujah. And yeah, if I have someone intermittently firing at me over the hood of a car, I'll shoot them in the foot if it's the only thing I can hit, civilian world or no.
Like I said, if I can show self defense I'll attempt the shot, too. The point is that it darn well better be provable self defense out here in Liberal Land.

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Physically able, yes. But it caused him to stop momentarily in excruciating pain, and he was killed when he tried to rush me with a limp.
It's the physically able part that bothers me. In the majority of civilian encounters there is no chance for cover or concealment for the victim. The aggressor lays in wait in an area he feels comfortable with and ambushes the victim. There is usually no time to prep, nowhere to hide, and nowhere to run. In the civilian attacks the victim is hanging in the breeze unless they can end the fight right now. Death is not necessary if the fight stops now, but if you carry a firearm you have to know it is a possibility. Luckily, it is a very low possibility with a handgun. It's a matter of turning the tables on the attacker. His hope is to make you a quivering mass of compliance. Your hope is to make him incapable of forcing you to comply with anything.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:21 PM   #28
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It is my biggest hope that I never have the need to worry about a prosecuting attorney. With that said I doubt my online presence would have too much of an impact considering my past training and experience. From the army to the LE academy to my degrees and experience in pre-hospital emergency care it's pretty obvious that I would know where to shoot by now. I'm going to be screwed anyway.

Like I said, if I can show self defense I'll attempt the shot, too. The point is that it darn well better be provable self defense out here in Liberal Land.

It's the physically able part that bothers me. In the majority of civilian encounters there is no chance for cover or concealment for the victim. The aggressor lays in wait in an area he feels comfortable with and ambushes the victim. There is usually no time to prep, nowhere to hide, and nowhere to run. In the civilian attacks the victim is hanging in the breeze unless they can end the fight right now. Death is not necessary if the fight stops now, but if you carry a firearm you have to know it is a possibility. Luckily, it is a very low possibility with a handgun. It's a matter of turning the tables on the attacker. His hope is to make you a quivering mass of compliance. Your hope is to make him incapable of forcing you to comply with anything.
Shoot until you eliminate the threat. Jacketed hollow points and as many follow up shots as it takes for me to walk away.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:39 PM   #29
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the reason term center mass is used is because you want your aimpoint to be center of the goblin since landing hits is what matters. in life or death stress your not going to be pinpointing a spot on his chest right in the heart all your going to be seeing is a badguy trying to kill you and the instinct to aim center will offer the highest chance of getting a hit before ammo runs out.

if you have time to take delibirate aim and put one round right in the sweet spot either you havent a real need to be shooting anyone or your already holding a goblin at gun point. in a straight up ohsht this 2sshat is shooting at me trying to rape me trying to rob me type thing center mass is your best bet to saving your life in a quick dirty fight.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:43 PM   #30
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the reason term center mass is used is because you want your aimpoint to be center of the goblin since landing hits is what matters. in life or death stress your not going to be pinpointing a spot on his chest right in the heart all your going to be seeing is a badguy trying to kill you and the instinct to aim center will offer the highest chance of getting a hit before ammo runs out.

if you have time to take delibirate aim and put one round right in the sweet spot either you havent a real need to be shooting anyone or your already holding a goblin at gun point. in a straight up ohsht this 2sshat is shooting at me trying to rape me trying to rob me type thing center mass is your best bet to saving your life in a quick dirty fight.
But I'm not saying you need a specific aim point. All I'm saying is shoot a hand width higher than what appears to be called center mass. I'm not telling you to count ribs and attempt to locate the left ventricle. If you spray them all over the place you are still in an area much more likely to end the threat.
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