The "Center Mass" Myth - Page 2
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Handguns > Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection > The "Center Mass" Myth

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-26-2013, 03:07 PM   #11
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Jacksonville,FL
Posts: 2,831
Liked 1768 Times on 989 Posts
Likes Given: 1302

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOSSFLY View Post
Good points Doc-
I've always concidered center mass to BE center chest but i bet you have just helped many to know the difference
I hope you're right. I just can't remember it ever being called center mass back then. During the all male classes they were even more explicit. Put 6 between the nipples. That doesn't work out to center mass, either. I hope I gave some people some food for thought.
__________________
Doc3402 is offline  
HOSSFLY Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 03:36 PM   #12
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
USMC-Hat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 36
Liked 17 Times on 10 Posts

Default

When we train we call it the "chest box" now and it's right where it needs to be. Question is how much aiming down your sights do you think you'll actually be doing in an oh s#+t situation? The answer is very little if any at all. Center mass is taught because it gives you the greatest chance to hit your enemy. Isn't the spine located center mass?

__________________
USMC-Hat is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #13
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9205 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by USMC-Hat View Post
When we train we call it the "chest box" now and it's right where it needs to be. Question is how much aiming down your sights do you think you'll actually be doing in an oh s#+t situation? The answer is very little if any at all. Center mass is taught because it gives you the greatest chance to hit your enemy. Isn't the spine located center mass?
Was kinda watching this thread for a real combatant to step in a point some things out.

Not discounting the other posters here in this thread, but when I saw the first few posts, I couldn't help but wonder just how many had actually seen combat, or been trained by those that have?

I've been in combat. I fired for hits, plain and simple. If the chest was available, splendid. If a big toe was available (yes, I've shot a man in his damn toe. I was aiming for the visible foot in general.), that was just as well.
__________________
trip286 is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #14
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
FrontierTCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 634
Liked 224 Times on 148 Posts

Default

Good points here. A lot of knowledgeable instructors do not use the old B27 silhouette targets because the X ring is located too low and instills a tendency of shooting "gut shots".
There are many variables. No two situations are ever the same. Distance, size, type of weapon you carry, bystanders, etc. all come into play in a SD situation.
Also remember that your an aggressor will likely never be standing perfectly still facing toward you like your target at the range. Most hunters understand "quartering toward or away" and know the importance of placing shots in the right location to impact vital organs. The same goes for SD and HD situations.

__________________
FrontierTCB is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:02 PM   #15
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,470
Liked 1139 Times on 591 Posts
Likes Given: 49

Default

Back when I was a lot younger and paid more attention to such things, there was a school of thought that went along with what was known at the time as the FBI draw: the gun was worn behind the strong-side hip, the person drawing the gun would go into a forward-leaning crouch as the gun was drawn, and start firing when the gun was pointed at the lower chest, with the expectation that the recoil would "walk" subsequent shots up the chest. You sorta started at gut level and worked your way up.

__________________
txpossum is offline  
Cattledog Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:11 PM   #16
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Jacksonville,FL
Posts: 2,831
Liked 1768 Times on 989 Posts
Likes Given: 1302

Default

Yes, the spine follows a somewhat vertical line down center mass. I say somewhat because it's not that unusual to see some degree of lateral curvature.

Anyway, if you're lucky enough to get penetration to the spine and actually cause some damage you may or may not end the fight. Remember, we're talking self defense situations, probably with a concealable handgun.

Besides the fact that the spinal cord is usually no larger than 15mm in diameter, there is another problem with this. The spine doesn't spread nerves out toward the head. The nerves branch out in a downward direction. To cause enough spinal damage to put the arms completely out of commission you need a head or neck shot, which is not the primary point of aim. If the arms still work, as they probably will with a chest or abdominal spinal cord injury, your assailant can still theoretically fight. True, he's probably not going to want to when his legs quit working, but you just never know what drives a person.

It's easy to do the what if thing, but the fact is that unless you get the golden BB, most hits outside the chest or head are kind of iffy. The highest percentage shots are the ones you need to try first. If you practice enough you should be able to come close to dead center chest without sights. Repeat as necessary.

__________________
Doc3402 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:15 PM   #17
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Cattledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 1,459
Liked 588 Times on 378 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Great points concerning lethality and anatomy. However, I believe the context in which "center of mass" is normally used has less to do with a lethal hit than it does with reactionary targeting. IE: When the the adrenaline is pumping, don't think about aiming for specifics. Get a hit. The best way to do that is to aim for the largest target, center of mass.

Also, as txpossum mentioned, training involves multiple shots, not one and recoil would tend to walk the target box up the body to said lethal areas.

__________________
Join the NRA Here!


"You can have it fast, cheap and accurate...pick any two."~Me

"Educate and Inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Cattledog is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:38 PM   #18
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Jacksonville,FL
Posts: 2,831
Liked 1768 Times on 989 Posts
Likes Given: 1302

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
Was kinda watching this thread for a real combatant to step in a point some things out.

Not discounting the other posters here in this thread, but when I saw the first few posts, I couldn't help but wonder just how many had actually seen combat, or been trained by those that have?

I've been in combat. I fired for hits, plain and simple. If the chest was available, splendid. If a big toe was available (yes, I've shot a man in his damn toe. I was aiming for the visible foot in general.), that was just as well.
A real combatant, trained by those that had seen combat, started the thread. I also have a pretty strong background in anatomy and physiology, and way too much experience treating shooting victims.

Now, I have a question for you. Was that guy you shot in the foot still physically able to return fire?

Would I have taken the same shot? If it was during wartime and that was the only shot I had, hell yes. In the civilian world, hell no... unless I could show self defense. You need to realize that going with the mindset that taking shots at hidden people in civilian life is okay is a pretty good way to wind up playing rock hockey for 20 to life.
__________________
Doc3402 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:49 PM   #19
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9205 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
A real combatant, trained by those that had seen combat, started the thread. I also have a pretty strong background in anatomy and physiology, and way too much experience treating shooting victims.
And that's why I was trying to be careful not to be insulting. I don't know everyone's history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Now, I have a question for you. Was that guy you shot in the foot still physically able to return fire?
Physically able, yes. But it caused him to stop momentarily in excruciating pain, and he was killed when he tried to rush me with a limp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Would I have taken the same shot? If it was during wartime and that was the only shot I had, hell yes. In the civilian world, hell no... unless I could show self defense. You need to realize that going with the mindset that taking shots at hidden people in civilian life is okay is a pretty good way to wind up playing rock hockey for 20 to life.
It was downtown Fallujah. And yeah, if I have someone intermittently firing at me over the hood of a car, I'll shoot them in the foot if it's the only thing I can hit, civilian world or no. But if you want to talk about playing rock hockey, then do you think it would be a good thing for your future prosecuting attorney to find you've been so thoroughly dissecting the human anatomy online and discussing exactly where would be the best place for your rounds to hit, that would cause immediate debilitation and quick death?

Not I. I'll stick with my old standby, hits count, misses don't. Have enough resources to stop the threat. When the threat is ended, so is your fight. That was a rule I maintained in actual acts of war.
__________________
trip286 is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 04:53 PM   #20
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Cattledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 1,459
Liked 588 Times on 378 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip286 View Post
But if you want to talk about playing rock hockey, then do you think it would be a good thing for your future prosecuting attorney to find you've been so thoroughly dissecting the human anatomy online and discussing exactly where would be the best place for your rounds to hit, that would cause immediate debilitation and quick death?

OK now that is a disturbing thought. I hadnt thought about that. I wasnt thinking about it. I was never here!
__________________
Join the NRA Here!


"You can have it fast, cheap and accurate...pick any two."~Me

"Educate and Inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Cattledog is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Expanded Background Checks Fail in the Senate - The Myth of the "Gun Show Loophole" BPNovum The Club House 3 04-18-2013 04:07 AM
The Myth About the Garand "Ping" Amsdorf Curio & Relic Discussion 25 02-09-2013 04:41 PM
Another mass shooting, another lunatic wielding an "assault rifle" 95sniper Legal and Activism 141 12-21-2012 01:06 PM
"Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings?" cnorman18 The Club House 26 04-17-2012 09:57 PM
Witloe Remington 1858 New Model Army "Lee" & "Grant" bprevolver Blackpowder & Musket 0 09-25-2008 11:11 PM