The "Center Mass" Myth - Page 16
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:57 PM   #151
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TekGreg,

There is something in you post that really bothers me.

Quote:
Learning shooter = "X" ring
Advanced shooter = chest cavity
Would it hurt to move the X ring to where it belongs in order to teach them properly from the beginning? What is the purpose of training and practice if you are training yourself to do the wrong thing? This is the entire point of the whole thread. We are teaching both new and old shooters to aim too low. A perfect score on a B27 target fails to hit any vital organs, yet moving your aim-point up one hand-width will get you corrective advice from your instructor.

Given the barely adequate calibers some people carry to achieve concealment, when they reflexively aim where they have been trained they probably won't even penetrate to a major vessel. Of course they could carry ball ammo, but the common view on that is that over-penetration is officially a bad thing. We are being trained and litigated in a direction that is counterproductive to our own survival.

TekGreg, This next is not directed at you personally.

Folks, I've wasted enough electrons on repeating myself. Do yourselves a favor and read THIS ARTICLE

No, I am not the Doc mentioned in the title, I have never met Massad Ayoob, and until I did a search for images of the B27 target I didn't even know this article existed. I have been to the website a time or two, and I've seen it mentioned here, so maybe you will all give it more credence than most of you have given me. For those of you that already see my point, here's hoping we never have to use this information
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:38 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402

There could be a few reasons for that. To start with, NYPD is using either 9mm for the newer officers or .38 Special for the veteran officers. As evidenced by so many other departments making the switch away from 9mm, both of these calibers appear less than ideal for police work. Secondly, the NYPD has seen fit to require either an 8 lb trigger pull (NYPD 1) or 12 lb trigger pull (NYPD 2) on all their pistols. In addition, all issued sidearms are double action only.

Another reason for the multiple hit problem has been covered very well in this thread. Police officers are trained to fail. Check the link comparing actual anatomy against the standard B27 target.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/doc-how-do-i-know-standard-b27.jpg
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are trained to fail. My dad is an Leo here in Indiana. They carry .45 ACP and hot loads. He has personally taught me how to shoot and is a damn good shot. A range instructor with a lot of competition trophies on the wall. Ex SWAT too. They won't allow any upgrades from the factory for warranty reasons so they are stuck with the 5.5 lb pull which I find to be too much. They are simply held back by the law to much and end up on the **** end of the stick when in a surprise gun fight.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:22 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
TekGreg,

There is something in you post that really bothers me.

[snip]
Doc, no offense taken! My best answer for you is that it builds their self-esteem and doesn't scare them away from the sport of shooting. I have trained many people who get a thrill from hitting the giant "X" ring and it keeps them coming back. This mainly applies to youth and first-time shooters. Too small of a target and they become discouraged. I feel the worse action would be to not acquire further training and believe the B-27 was authoritative. I use photo targets such as these from Law Enforcement Targets, inc. to keep the squared lines from turning shooters complacent.

I do understand your point, however, since our sport is under constant regulatory attack, I feel the more I can get in and keep in, the better. :-) Massad Ayoob and Lethal Force Institute are practical must-haves to any CCWs knowledge and skill arsenal and the article is dead-on. I would probably introduce it when I thought they were comfortable with the gun and could choose their shots.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:31 AM   #154
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i will add this. once your shooting skills advance and your group sizes are consistent and get smaller, placing shots where you want them become easier. whether it be the head, the chest or the groin region.

any shot should slow the BG down, but it's the follow-up shots that will stop him. IMO, doesn't matter whether i kill or wound the BG a long as i can stop the threat and live through it. that is my only objective if i have to be in a life or death situation.

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Old 05-07-2013, 05:51 PM   #155
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Life is as complicated as you make it. I make my own targets out of scrap cardboard!

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Old 05-07-2013, 06:43 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
Life is as complicated as you make it. I make my own targets out of scrap cardboard!
I like small paper plates and steel human targets when practicing with handguns. The plates allows me to put one on the head, one center mass and one in the waist area on the ranges cardboard targets. Also allows me to focus on these areas. I shoot at three randomly placed human metal targets for a realistic scenario. Double taps to each one back and forth at different areas on the range.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:23 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagermeister
Let us take the AR. The .223 round has that infamous arc. If you are zeroed in at 50 meters, the round will hit two to three meters high at 100 meters. Zeroed in at 100 meters, once again higher at 150. This s why you shoot at center mass, more hits on the chest area down range.
Whoa....we're looking at centimeters, not meters at that range! The .223 is very flat shooting!
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:36 PM   #158
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Aim for the sternum, it may or may not hit vital organs, depending on the round and range, but it will absolutely fracture the sternum which will collapse the lungs and stop the fight instantly.

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:54 AM   #159
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Coming back into this, I think there's two different objectives going on here.

1 - get the novice CCW handgun owner to learn the basic fundamentals of how touse the sights correctly (most important), learn how to acquire the target(second most important), and then learn to use the trigger properly (shoot thegun). Put these three together, and you have a shooter capable of hitting apaper target BG somewhere within the 'center mass' at 7-10 yards, and providesthem the confidence and safety that they can defend themselves in reasonable fashion.

2 - once the fundamentals are learned, drilled, and second nature, just asin riflery, once you drill to get 1" groups at 7 yards, you can move thetarget back to 15, 20, 25 yards, and have a reasonable center mass grouping proportionate to the skill level at 7 yards.

So both near and far distances, and specific shot placement have their valuein training. In a real-life SHTF scenario and you're fighting for your life,you're probably not going to be taking the time to get 1" groupings center mass, but you will have the mechanical memory to keep your shot placement ontarget, and could even conceive of considering specific shot placement if that option even presented itself if all else fails. I think the reason we hearabout LEO's missing so much is that most are limited on range time due to interestor cost, so they don't practice as much as we, the average citizen, have the interest and ability to as often as we like and need to as responsible gunowners.

Now getting back to the point of the OP, yes, the standard target is not ideal for hitting vital organs to stop or drop a BG. For shooting in a tactical scenario, drawing from the holster or moving through barriers, yes - hit the BG, preferable hit the BG where it's will do the most disability, and move tothe next target. As for shooting at the range, I was taught early on the valueof shooting the Failure Drill (and there are others) at 7 yards with small bullseye targets from the bench. It taught me quick target acquisition, smooth trigger pull and follow through, and target re-assessment, re-acquisition, and placement of a third shot. The mechanics are what's being taught, not necessarily specific shot placement. And that's what CCW holders need to work on most - fundamental mechanics. The rest follows naturally, including the concept of considering specific vial organ shot placement.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:13 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfinch2377

Whoa....we're looking at centimeters, not meters at that range! The .223 is very flat shooting!
Just a quick analysis of a Winchester .223, 55gr FMJ shows that a 100 yard zero means the bullet is only .2" HIGH at 50 yards (before the zero) and falls 1.1" and 3.5" BELOW zero at 150 yds and 200 yds, respectively. At even centimeters higher beyond zero, the bullet would be defying physics! :-O
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