The "Center Mass" Myth - Page 15
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:42 PM   #141
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So Doc, are you telling us that if we have been trained to shoot center mass we where trained wrong. So if you Were to shoot someone with a shotgun or an ar or a pistol they won't go down.

Please tell us how many fire fights have you been in to come to this Conclusion. Because a paper target, doesn't shoot back.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:41 AM   #142
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So Doc, are you telling us that if we have been trained to shoot center mass we where trained wrong. So if you Were to shoot someone with a shotgun or an ar or a pistol they won't go down.

Please tell us how many fire fights have you been in to come to this Conclusion. Because a paper target, doesn't shoot back.
Partner, I think you missed the point of Doc's thread... Reading comprehension prior to a dick measuring contest is always well advised.

Tack
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:48 PM   #143
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Partner, I think you missed the point of Doc's thread... Reading comprehension prior to a dick measuring contest is always well advised.

Tack
No I read it and comprehended it very well. I just don't agree with what the op posted.
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:08 PM   #144
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No I read it and comprehended it very well. I just don't agree with what the op posted.
E-6 Special Forces
Did you read my posts? I have been in my share of firefights in both the military and LE.
Do you agree or disagree with what I said?
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:40 PM   #145
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I didn't read all 10 pages of threads, but I recall a conversation with a friend who was on the SWAT team at the time, and their shots are aimed at severing the spinal Cord to instantly incapacitate an offender. If your ability is good enough, a shot from the bottom of the neck to the brain dead center will sever the cord and instantly drop whomever you are trying to stop. Think of it as "cutting the power cord."

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Old 05-05-2013, 05:19 PM   #146
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GP...

I would suggest reading the entire thread, this has been covered.

More importantly... the topic and Doc's suggestion is geared toward the CCW holder and the greatly reduced terminal ballistics offered by EDC handguns.

I don't know if the OP has been in any shootings but he's seen an treated more gunshot victims than all of us combined so I'm inclined to listen to his advicemas it pertains to EDC firearms and the most effective location on the body to aim for.

Of course we all understand that rifles are far more devastating and forgiving in regards to shot placement.

Tack

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Old 05-06-2013, 03:26 PM   #147
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GP...

I would suggest reading the entire thread, this has been covered.

More importantly... the topic and Doc's suggestion is geared toward the CCW holder and the greatly reduced terminal ballistics offered by EDC handguns.

I don't know if the OP has been in any shootings but he's seen an treated more gunshot victims than all of us combined so I'm inclined to listen to his advicemas it pertains to EDC firearms and the most effective location on the body to aim for.

Of course we all understand that rifles are far more devastating and forgiving in regards to shot placement.

Tack
I get that, but 10 pages of discussion was more than I was ready to ready at the time of my post. Yes, I know most ccw's aren't high powered rifles, my input was just saying that there was validity to the center mass point of view. And yes, I agree that there are other ways to incapacitate an attacker, and yes I realize that a medic or doctor or ER room nurse would see a great deal more than the average person. There was a video a while back about the NY capacity debacle, and it was stated there that something like 85% of the rounds fired by the NYPD miss their mark, and that multiple hits are required to bring the average offender down. Unfortunately, many people think of it as it is in the movies that a single shot has some sudden instant ability to incapacitate whomever it strikes. My wifes favorite line during movies when I comment is, " It's a movie."
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:33 PM   #148
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The validity to CBM shots is simply that under duress your

pistol is going to be even less accurate than it is at the range.

Rifles are nice, but who CCs one?

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Old 05-06-2013, 05:24 PM   #149
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There was a video a while back about the NY capacity debacle, and it was stated there that something like 85% of the rounds fired by the NYPD miss their mark, and that multiple hits are required to bring the average offender down.
There could be a few reasons for that. To start with, NYPD is using either 9mm for the newer officers or .38 Special for the veteran officers. As evidenced by so many other departments making the switch away from 9mm, both of these calibers appear less than ideal for police work. Secondly, the NYPD has seen fit to require either an 8 lb trigger pull (NYPD 1) or 12 lb trigger pull (NYPD 2) on all their pistols. In addition, all issued sidearms are double action only.

Another reason for the multiple hit problem has been covered very well in this thread. Police officers are trained to fail. Check the link comparing actual anatomy against the standard B27 target.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/doc-how-do-i-know-standard-b27.jpg
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:56 PM   #150
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This is not in response to any recent post, just the overall subject.

I think one thing we all need to remember is the training level of the shooter. I have taught some people on a B-27 target that were lucky to get anywhere near that gigantic "X" ring. Some others were a natural and started with most landing there. However, after a few lessons and fixing some problems, they all got inside it. Advanced training got them drawing from concealed and double-tapping the targets while handling FTFD, FTEJ and FTFR. Depending on your level of competence and education, "center of mass" means different things:

New shooter = on the paper
Learning shooter = "X" ring
Advanced shooter = chest cavity
Top operator = skull cavity

In this way, the term "center mass" applies to all shooters, just with different meaning.

Another objective this term achieves is to make sure to break shooters from the "Hollywood" trick shooting, i.e. head shots, shooting the gun out of someone's hand, shooting to wound, etc. this was created in the grade B westerns to make them more exciting and, unfortunately, the mass public believed that all shooters have these options available to them, and some shooters have even started to believe it. "Center mass" is a reminder to stick to basics and shoot to end the conflict.

Finally, in some states, it is ILLEGAL to use a deadly weapon (ANY FIREARM) in a non-deadly fashion. Warning shots, intentionally shooting someone in the leg to wound them, shooting the gun out of his hand are all illegal uses of a firearm and can put you in jail. "Center mass" keeps this in check as a constant reminder of where to aim and also what to say after-the-fact when being interrogated. All-in-all, when everything is taken into account, I think it's a workable phrase for training and tactics.

Oh, I posted this before, but thought it should be re-iterated: the pelvic shot after the double-tap fails is NOT a punitive shot and is not a "shot to the 'nads." It was taught to stop drug abusers that feel no pain, as a cracked pelvic bone causes a critical failure of the skeletal system and guarantees collapse. The shot is aimed at the belt buckle or slightly lower, but NOT the groin. A groin shot would hit all soft tissue and fails to crack the pelvis.

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