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Old 07-07-2012, 07:53 PM   #21
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IMO, carrying handcuffs is a very bad idea, because of the training required to properly use them and to somehow restrain the person while trying to cuff them.

then there are the legal issues, such as citizens arrest. yes you have the the right to perform a citizens arrest, but the legal issues could come back to haunt you in criminal charges and civil lawsuits. plus there is the simple fact of being charged with impersonating a LEO. even if you never state that you were a LEO, but give the impression and the person assumes you are one because of your actions or demeanor, you can be charged with impersonating a LEO.

my best opinion is that you do have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself and others, but if having to restrain someone, just hold them at gunpoint and wait for LE to arrive, however long it takes, but inform the dispacther that the you are armed and holding the suspect until they arrive.

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Old 07-07-2012, 07:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dog2000tj View Post
No civilian, CCW or no CCW, has the right to kill anyone. People have the right to defend themselves in many states and in some cases under certain circumstances. In some places people don't even have those rights (NYC for example).


But NOWHERE does a civilian have the right to kill anyone!
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Seems to me that these rights are the basis for the right to defend oneself. Defending oneself may result in the death of the attacker. So the right to defend oneself extends to killing if necessary.

"Right to kill" is a phrase that, taken out of context, sounds like license to kill without a reason. I don't think anyone here believes that we have any such license. But I think most people here would agree that we do have a right to kill if necessary to defend.

The fact that some misguided states (New York, California and Illinois leap to mind) severely restrict the means to defend oneself practically does not change the original statement "We hold these truths..."

On the original post question: I think CCW has no need for handcuffs. Defending oneself involves stopping the thread from attacking. If he runs away he has stopped attacking. Mission accomplished. If he runs towards you, shoot him, repeat as needed. Mission accomplished.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:56 PM   #23
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:59 PM   #24
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No legal background but I would imagine that responding LEOs would review the facts and determine if you engaged in a "citizens arrest" or committed "kidnaping" or "false imprisonment" in the same way they determine if a shooting was a homicide or a justifiable homicide. At the end of the day the investigation will go where it will go.

I do think that adding the wrinkle of a person in cuffs does not bode well for the armed citizen. Personally I may try to detain with the threat of force but if the BG runs, I say let him go. No one is paying me to make the streets safer.

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Well, said,Tack, and you make a good point.
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balota View Post
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Seems to me that these rights are the basis for the right to defend oneself. Defending oneself may result in the death of the attacker. So the right to defend oneself extends to killing if necessary.

"Right to kill" is a phrase that, taken out of context, sounds like license to kill without a reason. I don't think anyone here believes that we have any such license. But I think most people here would agree that we do have a right to kill if necessary to defend.
Thank you, Balota! No one has a right to kill, I was simply referring to the fact that we are allowed to engage in an act that MAY result in the life of another. Anymore dictionary clarifications necessary?
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:05 PM   #26
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No cuffs for me. I don't want to get that close to him if he isn't incapacitated & if he is, won't need them. I'd prefer to keep my distance, just have him spread-eagle, face down, on the ground & dare him to twitch until LEO got there.
What GG said. That, and in all likelyhood, you're gonna wind up in court. The last thing you need is the perp's lawyer parading up and down in front of the jury holding up your box of Zombie Killer ammo AND a pair of handcuffs, comparing you with Zimmerman or Rodriguez.
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:10 PM   #27
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Thank you, Balota! No one has a right to kill, I was simply referring to the fact that we are allowed to engage in an act that MAY result in the life of another. Anymore dictionary clarifications necessary?
None. I was pointing out a technicality in your statement ... the same could be used against you should you happen to defend yourself and take someones life.


But if you feel it is unimportant, that's your right BTW, "allowed" is not technically correct either
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
No legal background but I would imagine that responding LEOs would review the facts and determine if you engaged in a "citizens arrest" or committed "kidnaping" or "false imprisonment" in the same way they determine if a shooting was a homicide or a justifiable homicide. At the end of the day the investigation will go where it will go.

I do think that adding the wrinkle of a person in cuffs does not bode well for the armed citizen. Personally I may try to detain with the threat of force but if the BG runs, I say let him go. No one is paying me to make the streets safer.

Tack

You need to take this on a state by state case. The elements of kidnapping, false imprisonment, or any other charge varies state to state. If you do something that meets the criteria of your states penal code of the above crimes, there can easily be an issue.

Either way, I won't be handcuffing anyone. Proned' out is good enough. In some states, even this can be considered "imprisonment" or "detainment", based on the penal code.


Just remeber, its the technicalities that can really get you!
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by SSCRS View Post
You need to take this on a state by state case. The elements of kidnapping, false imprisonment, or any other charge varies state to state. If you do something that meets the criteria of your states penal code of the above crimes, there can easily be an issue.

Either way, I won't be handcuffing anyone. Proned' out is good enough. In some states, even this can be considered "imprisonment" or "detainment", based on the penal code.


Just remeber, its the technicalities that can really get you!

Another good point, Tack. Laws vary from state to state and how it is perceived is going to depend heavily on their code.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:28 PM   #30
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Zombie- that is a pic of Woody's tummy. He joined our happy band when he was recuperating at Ft. Eustis VA, and has now medically retired. Woody- you know we call that the "I fergot to duck" medal ?

If you should make it back here to VA, give me a shout, we'll go shoot something.

Re: carrying handcuffs. IMHO, bad idea. First if you have not been trained on them, you can get hurt. BADLY. Second, if I have had to draw on you, I am NOT getting close enough to touch you- or have you touch me.

Re: Legalities- a CCW permit does not grant nor expand arrest authority. Arrest by a private citizen WILL vary state by state. We have a couple of attorneys that are members- do not see any of them posting in this thread.

If you do not have a law license, please refrain from offering legal advice.

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