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-   -   Canton, OH Stop Revisited w/ Police Trainer (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f17/canton-oh-stop-revisited-w-police-trainer-46218/)

TekGreg 08-04-2011 12:20 AM

Canton, OH Stop Revisited w/ Police Trainer
 
As a benefit to the firearms forum community, I took it upon myself to contact a police officer I know regarding the Canton, OH CCW stop. He is a training officer for regular officers and SWAT for over a dozen years, and also currently teaches the CCW class in Ohio. He gave me permission to quote him on his response when I told him I wished to get an official answer back to the readers of the forum.

First off, my officers response about the Canton, OH officer's behavior: "He's an a$$hole. However, law enforcement has a failure rate of 2-3% (officers like the one in the video) and corporate America has a failure rate of 25%, so police recruiting is doing about 10 times better than the business average. The problem is we hire humans, and there will always be some failures that slip through all the screening that we do. The good news is that they will eventually do something like the officer in the video and be fired for it."

Next, as far as immediate notification of CCW: "The first words out of your mouth should be "I have a CCW" as you hand BOTH your CCW and your license to the officer. Keep your CCW with your license so you can draw them as one and hand them with the CCW on TOP. Do not start with, 'Officer' or 'Hello' as this gives a chance for the officer to interrupt you. If you are still told to shut up, you should keep your license and CCW held out towards the officer and comply with his instructions. You can only do the best you can under the circumstances."

Final notes from my officer: "I hope everyone will remember that this is a training problem with the officers and 97-98% of the time will NOT happen! I am adding this video to my officer training set as an example of how not to handle a CCW stop and the perfect way to get fired. If you are unlucky enough to be stopped by someone like this officer, do exactly what the driver in the video did - stay cool, agree with the officer, follow his commands, and settle it the next day with attorneys and his superiors."

On my phone call to this officer, he said that the communication center in Ohio should always inform the officer that the tag they are pulling over is attached to a person who has a CCW, so in Ohio, the officer should already know. But this doesn't relieve your duty to inform. When you inform, you basically show the officer that you know the law and intend to comply, which means you are law-abiding and are probably not going to pull the weapon on him. It's a courtesy for the safety of the officer. However, in my officer's own words: "We are trained police officers. We are supposed to treat every stop as if the driver and passengers are armed. It should not surprise an officer that you are carrying and he definitely shouldn't over-react like the officer in the video."

I hope this clarifies it for some people and puts some answers to the grey areas. If you have any questions that still exist, especially for Ohio CCW carriers, post them in response to this and I'll pass them along to my training officer for his comment.

JonM 08-04-2011 02:36 AM

speaking as a former LE person i found a lot of LE think of or treat citizens from the get go as sub-human creatures with no rights or intelligence.

its one of the disillusions i got from my military service and limited civy le experience.

both officers and citizens are just people. its the attitude of both that lead to trouble. oft times an officer's attitude towards a citizen leads to bad interactions and those rare instances get displayed on tv and youtube.

usmcprofessional 08-04-2011 02:52 AM

i have the upmost respect for all LEO's, sheriffs, highway patrol and the like. they are my brothers in arms and serve to protect me and mine as i did for them when i was in. that being said, i retract that statement for all northeast Ohio police officers. and thats coming from a former Ohio CCW card carrier. i have had to justify myself to NE OH police too many times for simply carrying a firearm for my saftey and not once have i had to for any NE OH sheriff, deputy or HIpatrol.

out of the many occasions of this, two stand out in my mind the most. i know this is all from my mouth and not on camera, but as a veteran coming home to NE OH and doing my best to find a job after the Corps, i could not make up this lack of public respect for citizens who are armed.

The Trip to Giant Eagle: in Cleveland, police take second jobs as security guards whilst wearing their uniform, which is a big issue in the first place. As a ohio ccw carrier you have to notice what public places you can and cant carry into. if the store has no sign prohibiting firearms you have to look for the liquor license. above a certian grade you can not carry into. an associate and I noticed a strange license code on the door we had not seen before. later to find out its a license to hold wine tasting vendors inside from time to time. without carrying our legal firearms inside, we approached the officer who was doing security. we stated we are licensed carriers and didnt know what the license on the door ment. we asked if we could carry into the establishment. he simply looked at us and told us no, we could not carry in there and we never will. dumbfounded we of course asked why. and i quote the exact words from the officer "because i fu*king told you you cant. thats why.". My friend responded that the officers uniform is out of regulation as he forgot to put his two lightning bolts on his collar. needless to say we never went back to giant eagle.

You think you're special?: In ohio if you have been out of the service for less than 6 years, and have an honorable discharge, you dont need to take a class, simply bring your DD214 to the office with all other docs and you can get your CCW. Cops know this. I was buying .45 hydroshocks at a local sporting good store when without my knowledge, 2 off duty cops were behind me making purchaces of their own. Buying the ammo me and the clerk were B.S.'ing about how i was happy i was getting my license. Over hearing that i was glad i didnt have to shell out 150 bucks for the class, the officers questioned me after i completed my purchase. one of the officers asked why i didnt take the class and i responded i had just left the military. stating that "that dosent matter, i should take the class anyway.", i responded im pretty sure the 5 expert awards from my 5 years in and the tour in Iraq has me covered. his response? "what you think that sh*t makes you special?" no, but it does help me know im better than most people. "if i ever find you out there with your sh*t on your person, ill show you whos in charge back home here." he said with his wallet and badge out.

there are good cops in NE ohio, but its the backwards 10%. ill never set foot back to my home city again. the law can have it.

lonewolf101 08-04-2011 03:11 AM

not all cops do this but SOME DO lie AND HIDE BEHIEND THEIR BADGE! their not superman they get their pants on just like everybody else 1 leg at a time. long story a few yrs ago mI slid off off I94 in a snowstorm 3 white deputies laugh and drove away a BLACK deputies show up accused me of knocking a light pole over no dents on my truck I told him anyway he wrote me up.! so you see they have every day pressure nothing special about them or the job.

WDB 08-04-2011 03:11 AM

Thanks for the extra effort Tek, invite the officer to join our group. It would be nice to have him with us and disspell some of the issues first hand. Not trying to diminish your efforts, I believe it was well expressed and got to the heart of the matter, just always good to add first hand folks if possible and expect he would be a quality member.

boatme98 08-04-2011 04:56 AM

Tek, thanks for the post. At my age, I know how life works. Sometimes you just run across an anal orifice. You just have to deal things on an individual basis. Sometimes it works, sometimes you get printed.
I learned at an early age, there are two people that you will not win an argument with: the bartender (you're cut off), and a cop. Deal with it.
The Ohio officer, however, is in need of serious retraining. I'm thinking heavy doses of antidepressants and perhaps a daily regimen of electroshock therapy.
Remember, life's a crapshoot.

TekGreg 08-04-2011 05:26 AM

USMC, Good News: Mine is a Southwestern corner of Ohio officer, near Cincinnati area but not in Cincinnati! So several hundred miles from your old stomping grounds! :p

TekGreg 08-04-2011 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WDB (Post 555610)
Thanks for the extra effort Tek, invite the officer to join our group. It would be nice to have him with us and disspell some of the issues first hand. Not trying to diminish your efforts, I believe it was well expressed and got to the heart of the matter, just always good to add first hand folks if possible and expect he would be a quality member.

WDB, since he's a training officer, he's as busy as a one-armed paper hanger, but an invitation sure couldn't hurt! I'll send him an email and see what he says along with a link to join us. Thanks for the idea!

TekGreg 08-04-2011 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatme98 (Post 555689)
Tek, thanks for the post. At my age, I know how life works. Sometimes you just run across an anal orifice. You just have to deal things on an individual basis. Sometimes it works, sometimes you get printed.
I learned at an early age, there are two people that you will not win an argument with: the bartender (you're cut off), and a cop. Deal with it.
The Ohio officer, however, is in need of serious retraining. I'm thinking heavy doses of antidepressants and perhaps a daily regimen of electroshock therapy.
Remember, life's a crapshoot.

Actually, Boatme98, my officer told me that the city of Canton, OH would have what they call "Retention Liability" if they kept him and did something like tried to retrain him. If he did something like that again, a prosecutor could use the first incident to clean out the city treasury and give it to the second victim! :eek:

So as much fun as your form of "retraining" sounds, they can't keep him on the payroll even a few weeks to even start to have fun with it. :rolleyes:;):cool:

usmcprofessional 08-04-2011 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekGreg (Post 555716)
USMC, Good News: Mine is a Southwestern corner of Ohio officer, near Cincinnati area but not in Cincinnati! So several hundred miles from your old stomping grounds! :p

never had to deal with nasty nati cops. but yes, stay away from the mistake by the lake.


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