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Old 10-10-2009, 11:35 PM   #21
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I think that we should also find everyone who's affected by this discriminatory and unconstitutional law, and likewise everyone else who wants to concealed-carry, and file a lawsuit to the Michigan Supreme Court in order to have the discriminatory law overturned!
so I assume you are from Michigan?Yeah,as long as you haven't been committed to an institution by a judge,been judged insane,been found not guilty of a crime based on reason of insanity,been convicded of a violent offense,assault,spousal abuse etc,and are 18 or older for a private handgun sale,21 or older to buy from a sporting goods or gun store,then you should be good to go.I so many times put off even trying to purchase a handgun because I was afraid of being denied for having a mental health record.I waited 8 years after turning 21 to finally try,and I was successful.The courts and system should have no record of your mental illnesses,just as they shouldn't have any other health records,it's not the court's business until you DO something that makes them commit you,judge you as insane etc.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:16 AM   #22
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I'm not sure what to say about the honesty of the question you pose! I personally could fit in the category of OCD, but then again i also fit criteria for other disorders also. The majority of america is technically suffering from some disorder, yet life goes on. I personally would have to stretch teh truth a bit. That's just me, and my feelings, but not my decision. You need to do what's right for you, and lets you sleep at nite.

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OCD people have mood swings
OCD is many different things. Only a small percentage actually have the wild swings you speak of. I'm technically OCD myself. I bet you are too!
Do you obsess over the way your lawn, house, or car look? Walk into a room and immidately notice the unlevel painting on the wall? (even if you do not act to straighten it)

symptoms
.............
Cleaning and washing compulsions: Excessive, ritualized hand washing, showering, bathing or teeth brushing. The unshakable feeling that household items sutch as dishes are contaminated, and can not be washed enough to be "really clean."
Obsessive need for order or symmetry: An overwhelming need to align objects "just so." Abnormal concerns about the neatness of one's personal appearance or environment.
Obsessions about hoarding or saving: Stashing away useless trash, such as old newspapers or items rescued from trash cans. The inability to discard anything because it "may be needed sometime." A fear of losing something or discarding something by mistake.
Repetitive rituals: Repeating routine activities for no logical reason. Repeating questions over and over. Rereading or rewriting words or phrases.
Nonsensical doubts: Unfounded fears that one has failed to do some routine task, such as paying the mortgage or signing a check.
Obsessions with aggressive content: The fear of having caused some terrible tragedy, such as a fatal fire. Repeating intruding images of violence.
Superstitious fears: The belief that certain numbers or colors are "lucky" or "unlucky."
Compulsions about having things "just right." The need for symmetry and total order in one's environment. The need to keep doing things until things are "just right."
Checking compulsions: Repeatedly checking to see if a door is locked or an appliance is turned off. Checking and rechecking for mistakes, such as when balancing a checkbook. Checking associated with bodily obsessions, such as repeatedly checking oneself for signs of a catastrophic disease.
Other compulsions: Blinking or staring rituals. Asking over and over for reassurance. Behaviors based on superstitious beliefs, such as fixed bedtime rituals to "ward off" evil or the need to avoid stepping on cracks in the pavement. A feeling of dread if some simple act is not performed. The need to touch, tap or rub certain objects repeatedly. Counting compulsions, such as counting panes in windows or signs along the road. Mental rituals, such as reciting silent prayers in an effort to make a bad thought go away.
Excessive list making.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:21 PM   #23
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The courts and system should have no record of your mental illnesses,just as they shouldn't have any other health records,it's not the court's business until you DO something that makes them commit you,judge you as insane etc.
That's with a right, not a privilege. A privilege can violate any right they want, under the grounds that you have to consent to give up some rights in exchange for accepting it.
For example, you can't refuse a breath-a-lyzer while driving, because a driver's license is a privilege. But if you're walking or riding a bike, then they can't breath-a-lyze you because it's a right to walk and bike, not a privilege.

It's the same with a CCW license. The CCW application-form says that when you sign it, you ALSO consent to them SEARCHING all your records, public or private.

And if it turns out you WERE ever diagnosed with what they consider a "mental illness," and you checked "no" on the form, then you get charged with perjury for lying on the form.

That's how they do it. It's plain witch-burning, straight out of the Dark Ages.

Its also unconstiutional, in that:

1. It's unequal protection in violation of the 14th Amendment, since it denies the same legal protection to people who have the same rreal qualifications, and denies it to others for no legitimate reason or compelling state-interest.
2. It's an ex post facto law, since it applies to diagnoses made BEFORE the law was passed.
3. This is also a violation fo the 14th Amendment's Due Process clause since the person was given no "fair warning" before subjecting themself to such a diagnosis, that a positive diagnosis would result void all CCW privileges. Constitutionally, a person can't be found guilty of a crime for which there was no Fair Warning given.
4. It violates the federal right of privacy, by requiring people to subject yourself to public scrutiny in carrying handguns-- but not anything else. (This doesn't pertain to mental illness especially, just CCW laws overall vs. laws which allow Open Carry; but a mentally ill person isn't any more likely to draw a concealed gun without warning, so it goes).

5. It's probably a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

However, politicians know how to choose their victims wisely, i.e. to only pick on those who can't do anything about it. They know that people with mental disabilities are typically unrepresented, have little power, and are subject to massive public paranoia and prejudice; as the saying goes, the average attitude is "I think the only sane people are me and you-- and sometimes I wonder about you.".

Therefore, they know that it will be easy to pass discriminatory laws; it wasn't long ago that anyone diagnosed with a mental illness of any kind, could be locked up indefinitely without trial, or even lobotomized, electro-shocked or killed, just like in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

In fact, it's not very well known that the Holocaust started with mental patients, when German doctors used forced "carbon monoxide therapy" that "cured" the patient by making them one less case. This was rated a success, and so was used on political dissidents.

Many such "mental illness" laws are based on this type of medieval hysteria.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:43 PM   #24
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I'm not sure what to say about the honesty of the question you pose! I personally could fit in the category of OCD, but then again i also fit criteria for other disorders also. The majority of america is technically suffering from some disorder, yet life goes on.
The key phrase is "diagnosed with."
As long as they're not diagnosed with a disorder, then it doesn't count: you can claim to see aliens and dead people, and have hallucinations and hear voices, but as long as you're not diagnosed with an illness then you're pefectly fine in the eyes of the law.

Likewise, people now have to choose between seeking treatment and self-protection, since if they are diagnosed with a mental illness then they won't be able to get a CCW permit; so if they want a CCW permit, they'll have to STAY AWAY from such treatment-- or even telling a doctor about any negative symptoms.


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I personally would have to stretch teh truth a bit. That's just me, and my feelings, but not my decision. You need to do what's right for you, and lets you sleep at nite.

Again, you can't get treatment for something, without a diagnosis.
So you have to choose between CCW-rights, and treatment.

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Originally Posted by hogger129
OCD people have mood swings
So do pre-menopausal women. Men with high testosterone-levels likewise can have violent tempers. The point is that unless a person is a PROVEN threat to themselves or others, then they can't be deprived of common liberty on that basis: it's called "presumption of innocence."
Anything else is trading liberty for security-- however many people try get around this by trading the liberty of powerless minorities, arguing that they're different, and so they feel safe in sacrificing them since it can't happen to themselves.
It's no different than any other form of bigotry and unequal protection.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:18 PM   #25
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Pity that Michigan used to have such a great state gun-rights organization. But it went afoul of the NRA on too many political endorsements and the NRA talked the Board of Directors into booting the Executive Director/Founder and replacing him with a term-limited politician who then turned around and booted most of the Board of Directors, replacing them with his cronies. Now the group does nothing and the guy that the NRA put in charge has diverted most of the operational funds for his own salary instead of using them for various activities around the state like they used to do back when I was a member. The group that actually got shall-issue CCW passed should not have been screwed up like it was. If they were still active, they could probably have helped you.

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Old 10-12-2009, 10:41 PM   #26
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When I think about not being able to get my CPL because of these laws,I don't feel like,"oh well" or "they have a valid point behind the laws".All I feel is discrimination.Can one person answer the question"what makes someone with a mental illness unable to possess a CPL"?There isn't one valid point.If I put myself into an Ignorant mindset,the mindset I had when I was 12 years old,then I could agree with the laws.The true facts are as follow:A good percentage of american suffer from some form of mental illness,but only 1% of all americans are inflicted with something as serious as say,schizophrenia,and who is to say that someone with schizophrenia can't possibly follow the laws like anyone else?I feel like the Michigan government is a loudmouth idiot that would say something like this:"all the damn mental defects and nutjobs should ever be allowed near a gun"!"they might shoot themselfs and will kill you cause they don't know better!"Listen Michigan lawmakers,get it right,Mental illness isn't even close to what you think it is!Mental illness does not somehow equate to carelessness,violence,or evil ways the way you think it does!It is an illness like any other illness.Dementia is what you brainless lawmakers are thinking of,which is a possible afflicion of a minescule percentage of all the "metally ill".You take 100 mentally ill people,I'll bet only 1 of them has dementia.I am fed of with the discrimination!

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Old 10-12-2009, 11:02 PM   #27
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When I think about not being able to get my CPL because of these laws,I don't feel like,"oh well" or "they have a valid point behind the laws".All I feel is discrimination.Can one person answer the question"what makes someone with a mental illness unable to possess a CPL"?There isn't one valid point.If I put myself into an Ignorant mindset,the mindset I had when I was 12 years old,then I could agree with the laws.The true facts are as follow:A good percentage of american suffer from some form of mental illness,but only 1% of all americans are inflicted with something as serious as say,schizophrenia,and who is to say that someone with schizophrenia can't possibly follow the laws like anyone else?I feel like the Michigan government is a loudmouth idiot that would say something like this:"all the damn mental defects and nutjobs should ever be allowed near a gun"!"they might shoot themselfs and will kill you cause they don't know better!"Listen Michigan lawmakers,get it right,Mental illness isn't even close to what you think it is!Mental illness does not somehow equate to carelessness,violence,or evil ways the way you think it does!It is an illness like any other illness.Dementia is what you brainless lawmakers are thinking of,which is a possible afflicion of a minescule percentage of all the "metally ill".You take 100 mentally ill people,I'll bet only 1 of them has dementia.I am fed of with the discrimination!
That's how it works with mob-rule, i.e. it's like Ben Franklin said: "democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." If the public decides that "you're crazy, and we can't have you running around shooting people," then that's what the law ends up saying: It doesn't HAVE to make sense, or be constitutional. As long as the law is passed, it's BINDING until it's changed.

The only way to oppose it, is to take it to court: but that takes money, power and influence. So it's the golden rule: i.e. whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

That's how it used to be before 2002, i.e. you had to have money, power and influence in order to get a CCW permit; but then in 2002 they passed the "shall issue" permit regulations, due to public pressure.

But to do that, the politicians included the "mental illness exemption," which of course most people didn't mind, since they were also of the "crazy people are possessed by the devil" mindset; and it allowed them to feel elite-superior as well-- just like the rich and powerful people before 2002.

Of course, anyone with such a condition, knows what it's like to be subjected to the stigma and prejudice in a competitive society, where daily we see people cast into the street who aren't "with it." Even mooks like Rush Limbaush say that "homeless people should be locked up," as if it's a crime to be unable to afford a residence. The truth is that people harbor gross prejudices of all kinds, and it's only civil-rights advances that changed it. However, civil-rights workers are also liberals who think that only government should have guns.

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The group that actually got shall-issue CCW passed should not have been screwed up like it was. If they were still active, they could probably have helped you.
No, they were the ones who COMPROMISED on people with "mental illness," selling them up the river in order to placate public prejudice and hysteria which might keep the law from getting passed.
Of course this is flat-out unconstitutional, but that's how politics works: "screw unto others."
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:57 PM   #28
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Well,I haven't tried very hard as of yet to fight anything yet.I e-mailed the state police and asked if OCD would disqualify me from getting my CPL,but it's been almost 2 weeks now and they haven't wrote back.It's just been tight money wise here with my wife losing a job and me staying at home with my 3 year old,I can't afford to spend the money to apply for a CPL to just be denied,and besides,I don't have an immediate need to carry anyways seeing as I am home everyday,and within a 5 second run to my handgun anyways,I don't need no permit to defend my family in my own castle.It is just more of a want to carry because I could,and because it should be my legal right to.I haven't done anything to be denied,either through crime or illness.I want to make a point and win against the state for discriminating against me for simply having the label "mentally ill".Mentally incompetent or insane,yes I understand why the state would restrict handgun sales and CPL permits,but what I don't understand is why someone like me can't carry when I am legal to purchase as many handguns as I want,and carry on all the other responsibilities of an adult including driving.Been doing that about 14 years and I never went on a mad OCD driving killing spree yet.

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Old 12-15-2009, 05:40 PM   #29
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Well I was studying this, and I found out that the REASON behind the CCW law, is because people MIGHT get in a fight, and then pull a hidden gun.

This is 100% unconstitutional, since it violates the presumption-of-innocence in the right to keep and bear arms-- as well as the right to Privacy, which is protected under the 9th Amendment, as well as federal case-law.
The problem, however, is the same as with ALL unconstitutional laws-- i..e it has to be FOUGHT in court, otherwise it's perfectly valid in term of getting arrested; and after that, a judge can STILL uphold it; it's completely discretionary, no matter HOW unconstitutional.

For example, if I wrote a newspaper ad that Obama was a bad president, I could be arrested for sedition; and the Court could say "blah blah blah, the First Amendment doesn't apply here, you can't shout fire in a crowded theater" etc. and that would be the end of it.

So most people aren't going to lie down in front of the juggernaut in order to stop it-- particularly for a law that only affects a stigmatized and powerless minority to which they feel superior; and likewise, most don't have the money to FIGHT it-- and virtually NONE of the minority does. The public, like against any stigmatized group, says "it's RIGHT that the law should keep guns out of the hands of those crazies-- it's we NORMAL people who should have them."

So the law is pretty fracked up, being essentially mob rule and tyranny.

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Old 12-15-2009, 07:04 PM   #30
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In my opinion,if you aren't a felon and can legally own the handgun,you should be automaticly eligible to go for a CCW.But that is not the case.I should apply for the permit,mark yes,I do have a mental illness,and when i'm denied,I should have a huge fit and march the capital building.It is unconstitutional,and I should sue the government for discrimination.

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